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Old 09-22-2004, 12:03 PM   #21
sportbike_pilot
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Default Re: Difference between engineers and physicists

Maybe that's why everytime I appeal a ticket I win. Probably why I'm batting 1000 in forensics cases too.



Are you telling me that in your opinion all engineers are stupid ?



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Old 09-22-2004, 12:04 PM   #22
SeanAlexander
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Default Re: Try again Racerboy. .

Ok, you're right KP, he was simply going 205 MPH on his new, stock, Honda 1000. How could I have doubted the officer?
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:15 PM   #23
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Default in no particular order

1. it is now and shall remain a serious flaw in our criminal justice system that, generally speaking, the people with the lowest intelligence, least training and poorest temperment have the greatest amount of discretion. da traffic pOlice. no offense meant, think about it before you attack this statement.

2. i come out on the side of the folks who think the math was wrong.

3. i am amused by sbp's reference to the phrase "statistically insignificant". pray tell what margin of error renders this methodology so. i agree with the conclusion, i just wonder what the expert testimony might be. and as for the expert testimony wish, be careful what you wish for, esteemed sbp.

4. it occurs to me that he may have been going 170 or 171 mph. it takes a long straight to get to 180. yeah maybe nos was involved, but still, even with nos it seems unlikely due to the wind resistance. i don't know of any ama superbike that got over 200 this year. some of the straights are 6th gear red line affairs, true?

5. i am not aware of any state that would throw the case out because he was going 170 instead of 205 as timed this way. maybe if by radar and you could show that the officer, wasn't trained in its use, or could demonstrate the machine was broken. still all would not be lost because the officer can testify that he is trained in the observation of speeding vehicles and can say he approximated the speed at 200 or whatever. the testimony is admissable unless the cop didn't actually have that training (and they all say they do). it would still be a reckless driving in idaho. even if it were charged as a standard infraction, it wouldn't matter that the math was wrong. it most likely wasn't 135 mph wrong.

6. folklore in idaho tells the story of one of the beach boys who got a reckless driving charge in idaho for traveling 150 mph. the story goes that ferarai north america sent someone to testify that the car was designed for those speeds and the driving was not therefore reckless on a deserted road. they say he was acquitted. i kinda doubt it ever happened, but its a fun story.

that is all.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:27 PM   #24
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Default not kpaul and definitely unwilling to opine

regarding the relative intelligence of engineers, but i had to grin, nope i laughed out loud, at this response. i think all engineers are better at math than than i am. i think otherwise they seem pretty much like the rest of the college educated population. a few dumb ones to be sure, but not many. i will say this, i have had a boatload of bad luck with geo techs and expert testimony.

next time you get a ticket in poky i have an idea that doesn't reach the merits of the case. idaho allows you to forfeit bond and there is no record of any moving violation.

as an idaho aside, my wife and i rode the mccall to sunvalley ride through banks/lowman a couple of weeks ago. i'm sure you've ridden that. man what a great stretch of road.

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Old 09-22-2004, 12:36 PM   #25
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Default testimony

generally sbp would have to be a licensed professional engineer to allow for the easy admission of his opinion as an expert for engineering opinions. i don't know for sure but i think he well exceeds that criteria. or is it criterion? anyhoo, as for needing a ph.d that's definitely not the case, altho it usually doesn't hurt. and i might add i think sbp probably qualifies there too.

you don't need any kind of degree to be an expert witness in many cases. i would try to give you a simple standard but i can't. i suggest imwinklereid's "evidentiary foundations" as a reasonable research starting point.

so far as i know the idaho guys who post on this site are well educated and damn smart to boot.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: Parallex error??? Physics for Racerboys.

I doubt parallax was a big problem, reaction time would be a bigger error. But I agree he can't argue he wasn't doing some outrageous speed. The judge might reduce it, but he won't dismiss.



Reminds me of the physicist who got ticketed for running a red light. He argued in court that he was approaching the intersection so fast that the red light appeared to be green from the Doppler shift. The judge didn't buy it and let the charge stand. If the judge had been smart, he'd have made the defendant calculate his velocity and given him a speeding ticket.
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Old 09-22-2004, 12:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Difference between engineers and physicists

I thought that you were supposed to be the expert at everything here? Obviously you have little experience in forensics. All you have to have is the confidence in an attorney and you are in. I've worked on many cases over the years (primarily audio/video survelliance), all with successful outcomes for our clients. Track record is the only thing that counts. I think that you are confusing expert witnesses with court appointed experts.



And this measurement is bogus. No matter how many times you write the same equation down it is still wrong. If you don't understand why it is wrong then I have been giving you way too much credit for knowing something. I teach physics to freshmen three days a week and they all know why this measurement is bogus. So what gives with Boeing's best?



In most jurisdictions manual timing simply will not cut in in court precisely because people like me show that it is highly inaccurate at high speeds or over short distances. Was this guy speeding? of course, was he doing 200+? Of course not (unless CBR1000rr's suddenly got faster than the one we rode). Why the discrepancy? A blunder in timing! The last time I was involved (in a secondary role as an advisor) in a case like this we got over 200 tickets dismissed and it wasn't even particularly hard to do. There was one deputy sheriff in Lexington KY who I thought was going to shoot me though, if that makes you feel any better.



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Old 09-22-2004, 01:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Difference between engineers and physicists

Either you didn't read the above post or just don't want to comprehend it's meaning because I have done it before where it counts. Manual timing simply is not reliable. I seriously doubt that this fellow was doing in excess of 160 or so. Fast? Yes! Illegal? Yes, 200+? No, and that speaks for itself. And further more the burden, IMHO, is on the authorities to be accurate and fair when they have the power of the state behind them, which in this case they are clearly not. This case stinks, and unfortunately, is not unusual.
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: 205MPH on a CBR 1000RR?

No wonder he was speeding. Scanning the ticket reveals that he has no motorcycle license. Obviously he simply had no idea how to operate the controls, since he never had the opportunity to complete a state sponsored MSF course. It's not HIS fault, it's our society.



Same thing with Charlie Manson. Surely he must be rehabilitated by now. I say this guy's already paid his debt (...then again, just a $115.00 fine? Heck, almost ANYONE can afford to pay THAT! The lawyer may be another matter though...)
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Old 09-22-2004, 01:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Parallex error??? Physics for Racerboys.

Oh yeah. What would the fine be for driving at relativistic velocities?



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