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seruzawa 01-14-2009 05:56 AM

The Brownshirts are coming.
 
Retooling Obama's campaign machine for the long haul - Los Angeles Times

Will they get little armbands?

Read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

longride 01-14-2009 06:26 AM

"In what would be another unprecedented step, Obama's political staff is deciding whether to create a service organization that would use the vast corps of its grass-roots campaign supporters."

Might they call it the 'Obama Youth'? All we need then is a few constitutional tweaks, and I think Seruzawa has it right.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 06:52 AM

I'm a lot more concerned with the astounding growth of private military companies than a grassroots activist organization. They've got tanks, artillery, and guns, and answer only to whoever is paying them. Blackwater is just one of many. Google "Private Military Companies" sometime, you might be surprised.

seruzawa 01-14-2009 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201227)
I'm a lot more concerned with the astounding growth of private military companies than a grassroots activist organization. They've got tanks, artillery, and guns, and answer only to whoever is paying them. Blackwater is just one of many. Google "Private Military Companies" sometime, you might be surprised.

Right. We'll be seeing Blackwater tanks on our streets any day now.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seruzawa (Post 201230)
Right. We'll be seeing Blackwater tanks on our streets any day now.

We've already seen PMCs used in situations like Katrina. Blackwater has almost every tactical weapon in the US arsenal at their disposal. I realize you're a conservative, but don't let that fact blind you to a more clear and present danger to your civil liberties. The fact is: the privatization of the military is a real threat to liberty at home and abroad. You've got NetFlix, right? Check out "Why We Fight." They borrowed the title from a series of WWII films. The movie starts with Eisnehower's (R) speech on the growing military industrial complex, and then goes on to document how his worst fears have come to fruition. In fact, watch it and critique it; I'd honestly like to hear a dedicated conservative's viewpoint on it.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrowningBAR (Post 201235)
That's why you should own a lot of firearms.

"A well-armed populace..." Agreed.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201234)
We've already seen PMCs used in situations like Katrina. Blackwater has almost every tactical weapon in the US arsenal at their disposal. I realize you're a conservative, but don't let that fact blind you to a more clear and present danger to your civil liberties. The fact is: the privatization of the military is a real threat to liberty at home and abroad. You've got NetFlix, right? Check out "Why We Fight." They borrowed the title from a series of WWII films. The movie starts with Eisnehower's (R) speech on the growing military industrial complex, and then goes on to document how his worst fears have come to fruition. In fact, watch it and critique it; I'd honestly like to hear a dedicated conservative's viewpoint on it.

That's why you should own a lot of firearms.

seruzawa 01-14-2009 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201234)
We've already seen PMCs used in situations like Katrina. Blackwater has almost every tactical weapon in the US arsenal at their disposal. I realize you're a conservative, but don't let that fact blind you to a more clear and present danger to your civil liberties. The fact is: the privatization of the military is a real threat to liberty at home and abroad. You've got NetFlix, right? Check out "Why We Fight." They borrowed the title from a series of WWII films. The movie starts with Eisnehower's (R) speech on the growing military industrial complex, and then goes on to document how his worst fears have come to fruition. In fact, watch it and critique it; I'd honestly like to hear a dedicated conservative's viewpoint on it.

For the 1000th freaking time, I'm a libertarian.

Once again. Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. SA and SS. Both the Rats and Pubes must fall or we are rapidly to become a fascist state like the world has never seen. This time they have implantable GPS chips and the capability to track every man woman and child. Don't laugh because they've already gotten thousands of foolish people to chip theor own children.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seruzawa (Post 201241)
For the 1000th freaking time, I'm a libertarian.

I apologize if I've misconstrued your politics, but most of your posts are clearly conservative by any reasonable measure. Conservative and libertarian are virtually synonomous in today's politics. Less government, lower taxes, etc.

acecycleins 01-14-2009 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201244)
I apologize if I've misconstrued your politics, but most of your posts are clearly conservative by any reasonable measure. Conservative and libertarian are virtually synonomous in today's politics. Less government, lower taxes, etc.

Not eniterly true, Libirtarians prefer the government run like originally planned by the founding fathers. Republicans since 1995 have decided government is good as long as taxes are low. The difference is simply that Libirtarians want one thing out of Feds- protection in the event of war. Otherwise, stay clear of the general public.
Do they convey that message well? NO! Bob Barr was about the best thing that could have happened to their party in the last 16yrs. But even that wasn't good enough for people to take notice. Republicans, on the otherhand, have no issues pandering to the public. They haven't made one smart move since the middle 90s when they won the house.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acecycleins (Post 201245)
Republicans, on the otherhand, have no issues pandering to the public. They haven't made one smart move since the middle 90s when they won the house.

And they've managed to lose their base in the process. The radio talking heads are yakking about the "end of the Republican Party" as well as a new "third" party. History repeats itself; the Southern Dems went through the same crises in the '60s with civil rights. Shades of George Wallace!!

seruzawa 01-14-2009 08:22 AM

Ha!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201244)
I apologize if I've misconstrued your politics, but most of your posts are clearly conservative by any reasonable measure. Conservative and libertarian are virtually synonomous in today's politics. Less government, lower taxes, etc.

I freely admit that the Dems are more fun to harass than the Pubs. But there's not much room in the Pub Party for libertarians any more. If I lean towards the Cons at all its just because I see them as only jogging towards the Total State rather then running full tilt. Plus, the Pubs are really boring while the Dems have attracted every moonbat in the country which makes them a gold mine of entertainment value. Sort of like a National K-Mart Blue Light Komedy Special. The Pubs give us Larry Craig while the Dems give us Arec Barwin. There's no comparison really.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201244)
Conservative and libertarian are virtually synonomous...

Wrong.





.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seruzawa (Post 201257)
I freely admit that the Dems are more fun to harass than the Pubs. But there's not much room in the Pub Party for libertarians any more. If I lean towards the Cons at all its just because I see them as only jogging towards the Total State rather then running full tilt. Plus, the Pubs are really boring while the Dems have attracted every moonbat in the country which makes them a gold mine of entertainment value. Sort of like a National K-Mart Blue Light Komedy Special. The Pubs give us Larry Craig while the Dems give us Arec Barwin. There's no comparison really.

Oh yeah, the dems have that special place in my heart for ridicule. The pubs aren't nearly as entertaining. They have religion, gay issues, porn hang-ups, and other fake moral issues. Which are really annoying, but not nearly as colorful as the demo's short comings.

The parties mascots are perfect for each other.

The elephant illustrating a slow lumbering, inefficient movement that appears to be a bit bloated with stupid issues while attempting to shove their long nose into places it shouldn't be.

And with the other party you have the jackass.

longride 01-14-2009 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201237)
"A well-armed populace..." Agreed.


Sounds like a change of heart since the last time we spoke on this issue. You are all for 'reasonable restrictions' of the Second Amendment. I'm for owning and operating any weapons that can possibly be used against me.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 201263)
Sounds like a change of heart since the last time we spoke on this issue. You are all for 'reasonable restrictions' of the Second Amendment. I'm for owning and operating any weapons that can possibly be used against me.

Yeah, I've reconsidered the issue and changed my mind.

longride 01-14-2009 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201272)
Yeah, I've reconsidered the issue and changed my mind.

You are such a liar! :) I am sending my regards with Buz. He's going to give you a big sloppy kiss whe he sees you!

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 09:48 AM

No, I'm serious. This trend toward private military has me very concerned, and I think that if the government knows that there is a lot of firepower in the hands of private citizens, it's a restraining force against abuse of power. I don't think any crackhead should be able to buy an AK 47 on the street, but law-abiding citizens should be able to buy whatever they want.

sarnali2 01-14-2009 10:00 AM

My personal favorite is the big signs in the backs of minivans and SUV windows, the ones that have "Marrige is" and a stick figure man+woman+son+daughter etc..I guess you just need to draw pictures for some people. I'm ok with gays getting married myself, why should straight people be the only ones to suffer?

As far as Oblamas minions, frightening parallels indeed, it's a short step from a non-elected political organization loyal to the President instead of the Constitution to a shadow government controled by the President not bound by the Constitution.

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich should be required reading in school these days, never forget that Hitler and the Nazis were legally elected and all the powers he usurped from Von Bismark were legally approved by the German people and government.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 10:20 AM

So, did the Patriot Act bother anybody here? How about the secret prisons? The torture? Was that ok because it was Bush?

12er 01-14-2009 10:22 AM

The joy about blackwater and their ilk is most are american citizens. Already in the country ready to go to the highest bidder.

acecycleins 01-14-2009 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201279)
So, did the Patriot Act bother anybody here? How about the secret prisons? The torture? Was that ok because it was Bush?

It'd be OK if PEBO did it, too. I have absolutely no issues with housing terrorist in secrect locations while they water-board those b@stards for info. Effective or not, leading one to believe they can die from the "treatment" would be worth it. Even if 1/3 of the info gathered was factual. That 1/3 is waaaay better than none at all.

Is anyone taking bets that the stovepipe hat will end up on PEBO's head by the end of his Lincoln inaguration. I guess if Clinton can be the 1st black president then PEBO can lead whitey out of reparations negotiations.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201279)
So, did the Patriot Act bother anybody here? How about the secret prisons? The torture? Was that ok because it was Bush?

Hated the patriot act then and I hate it now. But at the time a whole lot of idiots on both sides of the isle.

Secret Prisons:
How many other countries have them? I don't like them, but we didn't invent it. How about during WWII when the japanese were rounded up into camps. It wasn't "right" but that is war.

"The Torture"
-No worse than what other countries have done to our soldiers.

Was that ok because it was Bush:
Didn't vote for Bush either time.

Again. Just because the Repubs do it doesn't make it right when the Dems pull their own bullsh!t out of their hat.

I had no problem with invading Iraq. I do have a HUGE problem with the way it was run. The administration tapped dance around solutions and let up off the gas peddle far to early. It wasted our military's lives and the tax payers money.

Again, we need to expect more from our government officials.

longride 01-14-2009 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201279)
So, did the Patriot Act bother anybody here? How about the secret prisons? The torture? Was that ok because it was Bush?


Maybe you should read about what Lincoln did during the Civil War before finger pointing. Bush looks like a piker compares to the abuses that Lincoln heaped on the Constitution during that time.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 201287)
Maybe you should read about what Lincoln did during the Civil War before finger pointing. Bush looks like a piker compares to the abuses that Lincoln heaped on the Constitution during that time.

Well, Lincoln was a republican.

longride 01-14-2009 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrowningBAR (Post 201289)
Well, Lincoln was a republican.

He's Obama's hero too. I'm sure Bush isn't his hero though.

seruzawa 01-14-2009 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 201287)
Maybe you should read about what Lincoln did during the Civil War before finger pointing. Bush looks like a piker compares to the abuses that Lincoln heaped on the Constitution during that time.

Lincoln? FDR! You know what he did when they caught German saboteurs? Shot them and buried them in numbered graves near a garbage dump. They didn't get trials either. Why aren't the Democrats calling to have FDR dethroned as a great president. He would be on Bush's side. So would JFK. My, how degraded and cowardly the Democrats have become. They only hate and attack other Americans.

The fact is that under International Law and the Geneva convention these non-uniformed terrorists can be summarily shot by the military as spies. They have no rights to a lawyer or a trial. Bush is being nice to them. Lincoln would have hung them all.

The fact is that if Bush was a Democrat we wouldn't be having this argument. The Democrats would be defending waterboarding and the Patriot Act.... which was originally submitted by a Democrat by the way. Heck I had a worse time in Boot Camp than those jihadi country clubbers in Guantanamo.

Once again the speciousness of Democrat arguments is exposed when facts are considered.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 201296)
He's Obama's hero too. I'm sure Bush isn't his hero though.

And your man McCain was uncatagorically against torture and secret prisons. He is also on record as being extremely alarmed about the rise of the private military companies. He gave a great interview in "Why We Fight." If he'd used that for a campaign commercial and picked anyone other than Palin I might have voted for him.

The fact that other nations torture is hardly an excuse. It's something that we used to set the example on. People lynched Negros in Lincoln's time too, are you in favor of starting that back up as well?

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acecycleins (Post 201281)
Effective or not, leading one to believe they can die from the "treatment" would be worth it. Even if 1/3 of the info gathered was factual. That 1/3 is waaaay better than none at all.

And with all that; Bin Laden is still making video tapes, Al Quieda is growing, and we aren't anywhere close to ending the war. Gee, it's working really well!

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201303)
The fact that other nations torture is hardly an excuse. It's something that we used to set the example on. People lynched Negros in Lincoln's time too, are you in favor of starting that back up as well?

You are having a hard time reading today. I said other nations have tortured our military. Other countries freely do brutal things to us when they have the chance. Stop pretending otherwise. In war if you are not willing to go the distance, don't go to war. I am not "pro-torture", but I do know how the world works.

You know, war used to be fought by lining up in a straight line. It was thought to be honorable and brave (and seemingly the most efficient way to increase the rate of fire). Hiding, ambushing, and other tactics were thought to be cowardice and in poor form. Maybe we should go back to that so we can lift our heads up high and be proud.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrowningBAR (Post 201314)
You are having a hard time reading today. I said other nations have tortured our military.

You're right. I have to squeeze work in between the MO time, and sometimes it gets in the way. We really need a few pitchers and some AC/DC in the background for this sort of discussion.

BrowningBAR 01-14-2009 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201316)
You're right. I have to squeeze work in between the MO time, and sometimes it gets in the way. We really need a few pitchers and some AC/DC in the background for this sort of discussion.

And a pool table and a dart board.

There was this bar across the street from me a few years back that had ping-pong tables instead of pool tables. That was fun.

longride 01-14-2009 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201303)
And your man McCain was uncatagorically against torture and secret prisons. He is also on record as being extremely alarmed about the rise of the private military companies. He gave a great interview in "Why We Fight." If he'd used that for a campaign commercial and picked anyone other than Palin I might have voted for him.

The fact that other nations torture is hardly an excuse. It's something that we used to set the example on. People lynched Negros in Lincoln's time too, are you in favor of starting that back up as well?

So McCain was right about that, but an out-of-touch old dolt on everything else? Can't cherry pick Ken. Either McCain is an idiot, like all your pre-election quotes showed him to be, or he isn't. Your hero Democrats made him out to be an old boob with one foot in the grave, so please stop quoting the guy you didn't vote for, and had zero respect for before the election. We aren't discussing lynching Ken, so please stick with the subject. Lincoln bastardized and destroyed Civil Rights and the Constitution 100 times more than Bush ever did. That is fact. Roosevelt had the American Japanese people interned into camps. That is fact. Things happen when we are at war Ken. Quit acting like these things never happened except for the evil Bush. The funny part is that Obama is now waffling about how to close Gitmo. Here's why. If he lets those people go, and an attack on this country occurrs from one of them, he's going to look like a horse's ass. Obama will reverse almost nothing that Bush started. That will be a fact. I'll bet you anything on that.

seruzawa 01-14-2009 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201316)
You're right. I have to squeeze work in between the MO time, and sometimes it gets in the way. We really need a few pitchers and some AC/DC in the background for this sort of discussion.

I'd rather go riding together. Beer later.

longride 01-14-2009 02:36 PM

Riding will only be a dream for a while. 18 inches of snow in the last 4 days, along with sub-zero temps for the next few days, and it looks like the beer is looking better than the bike these days.

acecycleins 01-14-2009 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 201304)
And with all that; Bin Laden is still making video tapes, Al Quieda is growing, and we aren't anywhere close to ending the war. Gee, it's working really well!

Not video. Audio. With Apple's Garageband or Pro Tools I can edit anything, too. As nice as it would be to capture the scum he plays an increasingly irrelevant role in world terroism. That aside, can you possible fathom what the Feds have stopped? A buddy with Homeland security said that by the time 20th of January comes around there will have been over 130 documented (security blocked) cases of terrorism thrawrted where civilian injuries were calculated at 25 or more since 9/11. Think about that. 3250 people minimum would be injured or dead if not for those dreaded tactics. I don't know about you Ken, but trading a few hundred scum bucket lives for 3250 American lives seems like a fair trade-off to me.
We live in a mean world. It's isn't going to be "peace, love and understanding" in our or our kid's lifetime. Evil is always working and those willing to fight evil must understand that you have to purge the evil in order to eliminate it. If purging means torture or even death of detainees is a result then so be it. Sorry for the bad guys. Heartless? No. Not in my eyes. It's simple. Deplomacy only gets you to the table. Sadly, sitting across from your enemies doesn't end wars if the enemy hasn't lost a substantial amount of their own troops. Generals and their troops win wars not politicians.

acecycleins 01-14-2009 03:31 PM

I have many friends and customers that are fighting in the Middle East. I hate that they are there. He!!, they hate that they are there. But there's a job to be done and we're not finished. Regardless of past mistakes in planning and execution of this war it must be completed. When I say completed I mean that the World recognizes that the US did the job, won the war and returned home. If you can't mark the win box at the end of this fracus then we lose. If we lose we will forever be a target for the bad guys.

sarnali2 01-14-2009 06:33 PM

Well I'm well into a flask of Jamesons, so forgive me please but war isn't a game, it has no political considerations. Aurthur Harris understood that when he sent the RAF to obliterate German cities, Jimmy Doolittle understood it when he set fire to Japan, Sherman understood it when he destroyed the CSA's industrial infrastructure. Hell, Schwartzkof understood it in the first gulf war. Moshye Dyan understood it, Ho Che Mhin understood. The only ones that don't appearantly are these ******* ****suckers in office now who follow MacNamara's "limited Response" doctrine.. the only thing that does is fill American body bags and make the Military Industrial Complex even more blood money.

You want to beat Al Quida and the Taliban? carpet bomb their entire country untill the survivors beg for mercy. Exterminate them like the f*cking roaches they are.

Buzglyd 01-14-2009 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarnali2 (Post 201341)
Well I'm well into a flask of Jamesons, so forgive me please but war isn't a game, it has no political considerations. Aurthur Harris understood that when he sent the RAF to obliterate German cities, Jimmy Doolittle understood it when he set fire to Japan, Sherman understood it when he destroyed the CSA's industrial infrastructure. Hell, Schwartzkof understood it in the first gulf war. Moshye Dyan understood it, Ho Che Mhin understood. The only ones that don't appearantly are these ******* ****suckers in office now who follow MacNamara's "limited Response" doctrine.. the only thing that does is fill American body bags and make the Military Industrial Complex even more blood money.

You want to beat Al Quida and the Taliban? carpet bomb their entire country untill the survivors beg for mercy. Exterminate them like the f*cking roaches they are.

No doubt. It's called Shock and Phuking Awe.

Trying to fight a war without killing anyone just gets more of our guys killed.

Kenneth_Moore 01-14-2009 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 201318)
So McCain was right about that, but an out-of-touch old dolt on everything else? Can't cherry pick Ken.



Yes, LR I can. Life isn't black and white to me, the issues and people are more complex than "you're with us or you're against us.


We aren't discussing lynching Ken, so please stick with the subject.

The lynching comment was in response to your bringing up what Lincoln did in the modern context. If you bring it into the argument, then I can use it to point out that what was done 150 years ago isn't justification for doing it today.

Lincoln bastardized and destroyed Civil Rights and the Constitution 100 times more than Bush ever did. That is fact.

Be specific. What did he do to bastardize the Constitution and destory civil rights? Lincoln freed the slaves and saved the nation. Are you a separatist? Would you be happier if the Confederacy had won?

Roosevelt had the American Japanese people interned into camps. That is fact. Yes, he did. And it is considered by many to be one of the worst violations of civil and human rights in modern American history. It's something that nobody is proud of, and that nobody can justify. It was wrong then and it would be just as wrong today.

Things happen when we are at war Ken.

We are NOT "at war," LR. We have unilaterally invaded a soverign nation that did NOTHING to us and occupied it. The "War on Terror" IS BULL****! Osama was a one trick pony. Getting out of the occupation is going to be an absolute ***** and will take years. Like Powell said: "you break it, you own it." W broke it, now we all get to own it.

The funny part is that Obama is now waffling about how to close Gitmo. Here's why. If he lets those people go, and an attack on this country occurrs from one of them, he's going to look like a horse's ass. Obama will reverse almost nothing that Bush started. That will be a fact. I'll bet you anything on that.

At last, we agree. McCain, Obama, or anybody else is going to have a damn hard time cleaning up and sorting out this absolute disaster that Bush has left. He's going to have a ***** of a time getting the economy going again too. I have to hand it to you, I do admire your loyalty and willingness to support W, but you're going to be a pretty lonely guy on that mountaintop.


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