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-   -   EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers. (https://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-vs-world/3566-eu-laws-put-brake-bikers.html)

Spacemnspiff 05-06-2006 05:51 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
first!

ksquid 05-06-2006 06:04 PM

It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
I actually like the directives but it will probably have a devasting effect on the industry... However, it might just save the priviledge to ride a motorcycle for those us who have the skill and proper type of bike (high performance sportbike). Can't see Buz's geezer glide doing to well on this test Things like ABS might become standard equipment. I think most folks who ride now would pass if we were riding a VFR or BMW with a linked ABS system.... Having ABS on my car saved my life once....



But I don't see this type of law happening in the [b]land of the free and home of the brave </a>



Good article

caffine 05-06-2006 06:53 PM

Re: It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
You'd hope it wouldn't happen on this side of the pond, but I think our legislature has that "If it worked over there...." mentality.

GPgirardi 05-06-2006 07:07 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
YOU are the first to SUCK!!!!!

GPgirardi 05-06-2006 07:10 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
The E.U. has their eye on the U.S. !

One world motolaw.

Lock "n" load Boys!!

sarnali 05-06-2006 07:30 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
This is what happens when you give up your sovreinty, some fat-ass kraut eurocrat dictating your traffic laws...



Britain needs to tell Brussels and the rest of the common market to ***** off, flood the Chunnel and fill the chanel with flaming oil...That should keep the euro-trash in froggyland where they belong.

ksquid 05-06-2006 07:58 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Spoken like a true Bonney Lake resident. :) Don't worry you will be safe in your compound, you might want to feed your Rotwielers sometime though.. Last time I rode by I thought they were going to jump the fence... You have them trained to go after squids don't ya. :)

(Everyone thinks you folks who live out there are survivalist with barbed wire compouds, actually we are just jealous) When the end time comes will you let me in for a meal just for old time sake.. :) C rations are OK.. But I like the MREs better

nadimnabil 05-06-2006 09:15 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
I have mixed feelings. The high cost is bad, but I do think that making sure people can perform emergency stops etc from actual highway speeds is a good thing. As a new rider I have not had the opportunity to do this kind of practice enough if at all under supervision. I took the MSF course and I found the low speed braking drills to be a good place to start, but I didn't feel like they gave me any confidence in high speed braking. I am looking forward to taking a more advanced course this summer.



Nadim

emiles 05-06-2006 11:01 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
The first of the two directives (a new 'break and swerve' course in which they perform high-speed manoeuvres, including an emergency stop at 50mph) is aleady in effect over here in Holland.



Actually it's a bit more sustantial than that. The driver exam for a motorcycle is really 3 exams that you have to pass:

1) Theory - a bit like the theory for a car exam, but with bike-specific questions (position on the road, tire grip, etc.). You have to do this even if you have a car licence.

2) Special manoeuvres - there are 13 (!) special manoeuvres of which you have to do 7 at the exam. Stuff like figure 8, slow slalom, high speed swerve, high speed slalom, emergency stop, low speed manoeuvering, etc. You can see them here:

http://www.motorfreaks.nl/index.php/report/2941/2 and here

http://www.motorfreaks.nl/index.php/report/2941/3



3) Final exam - this is a normal driving exam, i.e. you drive about 45 minutes in traffic with the examinator following you in a car. He gives you directions by radio (you wear an ear piece).



Yes this is very comprehensive and very expenisive. On the average you need 30-40 lessons (50 min/lesson) in order to pass the exams succesfully (a lesson costs around EUR 45 ($50), the exams EUR 100 and 200). So you're spening a lot of money to get your licence.



Oh, you also have to wear full protection (helmet, jacket, pants & boots) during the lessons & 2 riding exams.



Does this suck?



NO!



What happens is 2 things:

-people who want to get their licence & ride a bike are very motivated

-people who pass the exams really know how to ride a bike safely



In the beginning of the process I was really pissed off at all the hassle. Now 2 months after passing the final exam (and 2 months riding, 3000km), I'm glad I got the training that I got. I know how to ride well and safely. Don't forget thet this is one of the most densly populated countires in the world with lots of traffic. So you really need some training if you don't want to kill yourself.



But then again, I guess that some Americans will view killing themselves due to incompetence as their Constitutional right .. Darwinism anyone?

fl34 05-07-2006 12:34 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Thanks for your pompass post emiles. I can kill myself with or without competence, thank you, but at least I have a choice. I think that with my first choice we should kill Darwin just because you seem to think that he is on your side.

seruzawa 05-07-2006 03:49 AM

Hey longride.
 
Looks like you were right. Except that instead of just banning those dangerous motorcycles the bureaucrats will simply make it nearly impossible for people to get licenses.



The helmet nazis who hang out here have no room to complain. After all this new licensing system will reduce the amount of "social cost " of uninsured bikers becoming a public burden, thus saving these people a few bucks on their taxes and insurance. You can bet that with the reduced accidents and thus less healthcare burden that insurance and taxes will go down. (snicker)



Your public officials know what's good for you. So just pay your taxes and shut the fOck up.

ncelik 05-07-2006 03:52 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Idiots.





I am all for reasonable HP/age regulations (I remember myself at 18), but this is over the top.





It will not spell the end of bikers, but significantly dampen the popularity. Endresult being more cars on the street, and I am sure that's exactly opposite of what the euro-green-sociodemocrats wanted.





Morons.


giuliom 05-07-2006 04:40 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Before you all get your panties in a bunch, I would like to point out a couple of things. I grew up with a system (in Europe) where it was 14-yo-: 50cc; 16-y-o: 125cc; 18-y-o: anything you want. The proposed directive would raise it to 19: maybe it will go through, maybe not, but I doubt that this will cause a major setback for the industry, since it would not be a substantial change from present rules. Consider this: MOst of my friends dreamed of bikes and a year's delay would just mean that they would wait and then buy at 19. The bike culture is different there: just look at a bike parking lot in any major city: I live in LA and nowhere in LA I ever see the number of bikes one sees in an average Italian city, except for weekends at the Rock Store, I guess. Also, if any of you has ever driven in Europe, you would know how truly dangerous it can be (I mean actual driving yourself, not seeing it from the bus). The idea that a MSF-type course can prepare you for that is ridiculous. The Dutch test actually seems just slightly tougher than the one in California, where we have to do some maneuvers in the parking lot. I wish they had a high-speed braking test here, BTW. None of this matters to the US, anyway: none of those measures has a snowball's chance in hell of being introduced here and, more importantly, being passed, IMHO. The question to ask is why exactly changing the test would cost someone 500 *additional* pounds? At Friday's rate that's about an additional $945: what do they pay DMV examiners in the UK and can I get that job?












ncelik 05-07-2006 04:50 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Well, (being Euro myself), I think that 14-yo-: 50cc; 16-y-o: 125cc; 18-y-o: anything you want; is a perfectly reasonable. It gives you time to grow as a rider.



What I really object is 1) the 19-yo limit - if you can vote with 18, why can't you be trusted to ride what you want; 2) Some 24-yo limit mentioned, for the same reason; and most importantly 3) the added cost, which would have prevented me getting a license way-back-when for sure.

ncelik 05-07-2006 04:55 AM

Re: It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
Unfortunately, this looks more and more like the land of the formerly free.

I saw yesterday that we now have the "Directorate of Management" in the "Department of Homeland Security". Directorate of Management? USSR 1976?

emiles 05-07-2006 05:33 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
"Thanks for your pompass post emiles."



My, my, touched a sensitive nerve have we?



The problem is not you killing yourself (Darwin would approve), but you splattering 1/2 your brain on the sidewalk and leaving enough in your skull to live. Now society (or your insurance i.e. everyone else, or do you believe in Santa?) gets to pay a zillion $$ to keep you alive till you die of old age.

emiles 05-07-2006 05:38 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
"Also, if any of you has ever driven in Europe, you would know how truly dangerous it can be (I mean actual driving yourself, not seeing it from the bus). The idea that a MSF-type course can prepare you for that is ridiculous. The Dutch test actually seems just slightly tougher than the one in California, where we have to do some maneuvers in the parking lot."



Guess what, after Malta (of all places) Holland has the lowest number of traffic deaths / million km's in the world .. and it has one of the highest population densities in the world. So I guess good training pays off ...



BTW as for traffic deaths (# deaths/million km's), the EU average is way lower than the US .. and that includes countries like Poland and Portugal ..

wwalkersd 05-07-2006 05:59 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
<blockquote>1) Theory - a bit like the theory for a car exam, but with bike-specific questions (position on the road, tire grip, etc.). You have to do this even if you have a car licence.</blockquote>



Hear, hear! I don't think many of us in the US would argue against it being a good thing for cagers to know something about how motorcycles behave!



As to the rest, well, the expense doesn't seem to deter too many folks in the EU from getting motorcycle or car licenses, does it? And it does result in drivers/riders who know what they're doing. And even here, driving is supposed to be a privilege, not a right (discounting the fact that the layout of our cities, and paucity of adequate public transportation, make it a necessity).



But of course, such training would never be required here. Riders would simply point out that we don't make car drivers take any of this expensive training, so it's unfair. And the car drivers would never go for it.

ksquid 05-07-2006 06:05 AM

You can't fly an airplane without training.
 
Excellent Post...I agree with you.. I hope to complete my Private Pilot's license this summer. I guess some folks will think that I should be able to fly a plane without the comprehensive training that is required...

ksquid 05-07-2006 06:10 AM

Re: Hey longride.
 
You know this will never happen here. Didn't Missouri just repeal it's helmet law.. Thanks to the GPTB ...

sarnali 05-07-2006 06:26 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
I could probably spare some peanut butter and saltines for you and the missus.......



make sure you're not followed.

sarnali 05-07-2006 06:38 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
not trying to be a smart alec but with high traffic densities and a small country plus the european habit of wearing race leathers and helmets everytime you're on the bike, you guys probably don't have the chance to ride as fast or as hard as us.



For example I can leave my house and within a few minutes can be on mountain passes and hitting over a hundred almost at will. The only thing stopping me is the occasional log truck and wandering herds of Elk. Unfortunatly they can both stop you pretty dam quick LOL

BMW4VWW 05-07-2006 06:59 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
"The problem is not you killing yourself (Darwin would approve), but you splattering 1/2 your brain on the sidewalk and leaving enough in your skull to live. Now society (or your insurance i.e. everyone else, or do you believe in Santa?) gets to pay a zillion $$ to keep you alive till you die of old age."



Only in a socialist nanny state emiles. Why is it that everyone in the world seems to be looking at government as the great diaper changer of society?

seruzawa 05-07-2006 07:10 AM

Re: Hey longride.
 
"And it can't happen here.

Oh it can't happen here.

You're safe mommy

You're safe daddy

You just get a little TV dinner and cook it up, cook it up

And it can't happen here."



If you liked that, next is a rendition of "Brown Shoes Don't Make it."

BMW4VWW 05-07-2006 07:10 AM

Re: It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
Careful ncelik, if you start making rational observations about the loss of freedom in our society you will be accused of being an out of the mainstream extremist.

BMW4VWW 05-07-2006 07:11 AM

Re: Hey longride.
 
I'd prefer Suzy Creamcheese.

ncelik 05-07-2006 07:49 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Ahm, ever heard of "Autobahn"?

davidhaner 05-07-2006 07:49 AM

Re: It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
Still stinging, eh?

davidhaner 05-07-2006 07:54 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
My insurance bill then pays for your brain. Not government. Your free market insurance system.

davidhaner 05-07-2006 08:00 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
I live in the heart of Seattle, I5 is 4 blocks from my house in Eastlake. I can do 100 on that too, as long as its not rush hour. In fact, I sometimes do, from the roanoke entrance to 65th where I go buy kickass steaks from Whole Foods. Great excuse for a 2 mile ride. I wear race leathers and a helmet every time; I ride multiple times per day. I don't know how that limits me, but apparently it does.

BMW4VWW 05-07-2006 08:06 AM

Re: It's a good thing if you have the right VFR
 
No, I'm used to it.

BMW4VWW 05-07-2006 08:13 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Careful Dave, Your ignorance is showing. Here in California, at least we have a government czar of insurance elected by the boobocracy to make sure that those evil insurance companies aren't "gouging" the populace. This pretty much put a damper on "MY" free market insurance system, and makes you liable for my brain.

sarnali 05-07-2006 08:18 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
I don't know how often you can hit 100 on I-5 going through Seattle or anywhere between South Center and Everett unless it's midnight or you're a lot braver than I am.



Anyway you're missing my point, population densities are a lot greater in europe than anywhere West of the Mississippi outside of big cities. If you're doing 100 on Eastlake or Lake city Way or any Seattle streets you really need to think about how long you want to live.



At any rate, you're talking about getting leathered up for a 2 mile ride, I'm talking about the hundred or so miles from my house to Yakima on 410, two totaly different riding enviroments

sarnali 05-07-2006 08:23 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
The Autobahn is a limited access high speed highway or were you refering to the Kraftwerk electronica from the 70's?



At anyrate I would expcet your population densities and geographical areas would preclude you from any real high speed work outside of track days which would be much safer than city riding.

Tadgh 05-07-2006 09:05 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
speaking also as a european, the laws have been up til recently ...16 year old 50cc moped ..17 year old bike under 125cc and after passing your test and having a full 125cc licence for 2 years you can get a provsional licence for bikes over 125cc which you will also have to do a test for in order to get a full licence...

the idea of wearing leathers or helmets doesnt raise such an issue because due to the weather rain or cold etc it is impossible to go without either .. i dont see these laws as particularily draconian but maybe that is just because of the general european history to bike licences. from what i see despite these laws bike usuage tends to be higher in europe than the US especially for commuting . I pretty much support any initiative which leads to better riders however the cost does appear to be high....

ksquid 05-07-2006 09:48 AM

You are OK Van and seruzawa
 
Hey I don't care what the other extremist say about you.. You are alright with me.. :) I had to go back and read what Gabe said.. Have to agree with him on your views. They are outside mainstream political thought... But I wouldn't want you to stop talking about them etc. seruzawa makes a good point with his slavery argument... Hey I learn a lot from both of you guys.. Haven't read much of davidhanner yet.. hope to hear more..

ksquid 05-07-2006 11:12 AM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
"what i see despite these laws bike usuage tends to be higher in europe than the US especially for commuting" Excellent Point.. That and high gas prices... Maybe when gas hits $4.00 here in the U.S. folks might change their attitudes.

pplassm 05-07-2006 11:40 AM

Re: Hey longride.
 
It looks just like a Telefunken U-47!

emiles 05-07-2006 12:04 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
"Maybe when gas hits $4.00 here in the U.S. folks might change their attitudes."



That's still cheap compared to current EU gas prices .. now about EUR 1,40 per liter (= almost $5/gallon)

ncelik 05-07-2006 12:55 PM

Re: EU Laws to Put Brake on Bikers.
 
Why not combine both - nothing better than driving down the Autobahn while listening to the long version of the Kraftwerk song! (You are forgiven everything you say from now on, just by knowing about Kraftwerk's Autobahn masterpiece - yep, I am a fan)



I remember when I used to pick my commute so I had to get onto 3 different highways, each for 1 exit only. Used to hit 200km/h almost every morning, despite a speed limit of 130km/h. Still puts a smile on my face. Granted, I used to come to work fairly late, so the main rush hour was over. Glory days...


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