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TuneREX 06-25-2003 01:19 PM

Re: Burns Gets Naked With Twins!
At least he's actually ridden the damn things back to back. That's why he's in a position to say that the new SV is a turdola. And why you're just, well...assuming the position.

rsheidler 06-25-2003 01:34 PM

Re: You are too funny
Personally, I have never been all that attracted to Harleys myself (Buells are another thing) but my particular disease is an attraction to old Yamaha thumpers -- SR500 in particular. And a not quite so obsolete, but still far from bleeding edge, Ducati 900 SS.

To me, a big part of the appeal of any vehicle is the sense of personal involvement -- Hell, anyone with a big enough bank account can buy a Ferrari or Porsche, or Ducati 999 or whatever exotic, but that does not give them the same feeling of ownership that someone gets from getting busted knuckles and dirt under his/her nail making it your own.

Once one has that kind of relationship, one does not casually get rid of it just because there is something newer or faster. Kinda like I feel about my wife -- I ain't gonna dump her just because there are some young things down by the pool that might look better in a bikini than she does these days (not that I might not drool a bit, just like I do over the newest bikes on the market).


the "other" Bob

Rob-SV650 06-25-2003 01:48 PM

I think you missed my point
Do you want a bike that will easily go 200K+ miles without needing a rebuild or one that can be rebuilt every 50K miles (or however long Harley and VW engines go between rebuilds)? It's not like we live in a 3rd world country where we'll be lucky if we can afford one bike in an entire lifetime and have to keep it running at all costs.

What you said is exactly why I made the comparison between old Bugs and Harleys - they have a LOT more in common than most people realize. Harleys, like old Bugs, are also being lovingly rebuilt and maintained by their owners many years down the road. Both are designs dating from pre-1940. Neither is remotely competetive in any measure of performance with the best stuff made today. Both wear out much more quickly than anything with a modern liquid cooled design. The Bug was killed off by emissions standards - if motorcycles had to meet the same standards as cars, the air cooled Harley would disappear as well (and this will probably happen someday).

Yes, most Civics, Corollas, and Hoyamazukis (Jap bikes) are just scrapped when they wear out, instead of being rebuilt. When someone pays a premium price for a vehicle that wears out after a relatively low amount of use, rebuilding becomes a necessity in order to get one's money's worth. With vehicles that are relatively cheap, with a lifespan that's practically forever given a minimal amount of maintainance, why bother rebuilding? Time to upgrade!

So for me as well as most riders I know, the question is not "can I rebuild it", but "how long will it last, i.e. maintain performance within reasonable specifications, without needing to be rebuilt". Rebuildability isn't that important to me on a bike that will easily go 100K miles or much more without any signs of wear. My V65 is going on 20 years old and works as well as a new bike - when it finally wears out, which will be when it's 30 or more years old at the rate it's going, or a necessary part breaks and I can't find a replacement, I think I'll be ready to let go of it and get a new bike. As it is, the only things it ever needs are plugs, fluids, hoses, tires and bulbs - all of which are readily available and relatively cheap.

What IS important to me is how often I have to make unscheduled repairs to a bike, and whether I can trust it not to break at an inopportune time. This I trust my Sabre (and the SV650 I had) to do. Would you trust a Harley or a Buell to go cross country without taking a dump or needing a time consuming fix? Or would you feel better off on a Hoyamazuki?

After 200K on a bike (like that CBR in the article), I'll be more than ready to get a new bike. That one was still going strong, as in with no need for a rebuild for the forseeable future. Who cares if you can rebuild the fookin engine if it's gonna be well over 200K miles before you need to? Only someone who wants to own one motorcycle for the rest of their life.

I don't particularly want to rebuild a 20+ year old motorcycle. When the time comes for that, I would rather upgrade to something that takes advatage of 20+ years of technological advances. The difference in acceleration, handling, touring comfort, and overall utility between a new FJR1300 (which I want) and my old V65 Sabre should make for a nice upgrade.

rsheidler 06-25-2003 01:49 PM

Very Insightful
I think you really nailed it. That is why you tend to find the Ducati guys, Harley guys (and also BMW & Truimph) guys on the same side of the Japan vs the rest disputes on this site. For most it is not a matter of not liking things Japanese (most of us have, or have had, Japanese bikes, Japanese cars, Japanese cameras, electronics etc). It really comes down to a difference in how we look at things: is a motorcycle a commodity, that one uses and soon replaces as technology moves on (your comparison to computors is apt) or is it something with which one develops a long-term relationship.

Not a question of who is right or who is wrong but different expectations of what makes a motorcycle great.

And not all Japanese bikes fall into the planned obsolescence mold -- there are serious cult followings for bikes like the Yamaha SR500 (which was, by KPaul standards) obsolete when introduced (my personal addiction) or say Honda Hawk GT.

rsheidler 06-25-2003 02:05 PM

Re: I think you missed my point
Actually, I agree with much of what you are saying; however, the post by electroglider that started this thread was refering to how rebuildable they are.

Personally, I have never owned a Harley and have been only mildly tempted to ever buy one so I am not specifically defending them.

However, I don't personally understand the appeal of a nearly 20 year old V65 Sabre, or, a few years from now, a 20 year old R6. I can understand the appeal of an old Harley, and old Ducati, an old Triumph, certainly my old SR500 (and, yes, old VW Beetles, bug-eye Sprites and other similarly obsolete vehicles).

Quite frankly, as much as I enjoy riding cutting edge sportbikes, I cannot imagine wanting to own many of the current Japanese bikes for the next 20 years. I CAN imagine that 20 years from now, I would still own my 95 Ducati and my 78 Yamaha SR500.

But there is nothing wrong with viewing motorcycles as disposable commodities.


Lowrez 06-25-2003 02:13 PM

Useless review
Great now I know if I want to spend $10K don't buy a $6K bike. Got it. I'll save you time on the next review. If your option is a '75 Honda CL360 or a new Ducati ST4, take the Ducati. It's really the better bike.

Rob-SV650 06-25-2003 02:25 PM

Re: You are too funny
I understand the attraction to odd bikes that appeal to the emotions and senses over pure performance numbers. For one, Buells are just plain cool, even if they are saddled with that engine. I would buy one, just not as my only bike. And Ducatis too, it's all in the subjective feel, not the numbers. Even with Japanese bikes, there is something about the feel of old V65's and V-Maxes that makes them appealling beyond their performance specs.

Definitely know what you mean about the sense of pride thing - when I did mods on my SV650, I was damn proud that I had done it myself - but ultimately my final judgement is the riding and the bike that rides better wins me over. Motorcycles are not like people - they don't get hurt if we move on to newer models.

A big part of my Japanese bike preference is I ride daily, as in commute on my bike, and downtime is a MAJOR pain for me. I hear the Aprilias are very reliable though, and are pretty appealling to the senses and emotions as well. Hmmmm....

captainwhoopass 06-25-2003 02:50 PM

Re: Thus Spake The Head...
You forgot the most outlandish of them all, The Rock.

captainwhoopass 06-25-2003 03:04 PM

Re: Very Insightful
There are plenty of others too- XS650, H1/H2 Kawi's, V-Max, RD400, RZ350, CBX.

ebass 06-25-2003 03:28 PM

stupid EBass not understand
Readers speak with forked tongue.

Half say, want to read only one story per year. If not 600cc replica racer comparo which all same bike and all cost same, then not valid comparo and we stupid for printing.

Half say, want new story every 4 hours or not getting money's worth.

EBass very confused. Must drink more beer until forget question.

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