Motorcycle Forum

Motorcycle Forum (https://www.motorcycle.com/forum/)
-   MO Reader Feedback (https://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-reader-feedback/)
-   -   What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin? (https://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-reader-feedback/1270-what-size-victory-600-openbike-twin.html)

MuzzyMatt 06-14-2002 03:15 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
The right tool for the job is the phrase that comes to mind. I ride an '01 Mille and bought it not for the extra 10th of a second, but rather just because it felt good beneath me. I used to have a CBR 600, but compared to the Mille, it felt like a scooter.

Zapata 06-14-2002 03:16 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
JB -- spare us the sight of your sunburnt pecs and zip up those leathers! Good piece, though. Just wish I could afford the Mille R.

bobbob_3 06-14-2002 04:23 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Thank you. That was an entertaining, thought provoking read. (And for me, worth the wait.) Is an R6 (or any 600) all you need? Yes: if track, mountain twisties, or concentrated road work (riding one-up) is what you seek - and you fit on the bike. Touring, enjoying the view beyond the tarmac, riding with a more relaxed purpose or carrying more than your wallet require more options.



But the real crux of the biscuit here is logic versus emotion. Logically, a 600 (in the color you like) is all you need. EmotionallyÂ… the options spin off into the sunset, fueled by cues from personal experience and desire (and fanned by advertising grist.) Logic without emotion buys you a Civic. Emotion without logic buys you something Italian. Somewhere in between, Billy, is a bike for you!

KPaulCook 06-14-2002 06:46 PM

If these bikes were women
 
The 600 is like the girl you dated/lived with in college. She is fun, forgiving, flirtatous, and she goes with you anywhere. You love being around her but you are arognant to think you can do better' Too bad you are young and stupid.

The R-1 is your trophy. You go out with her when you are going through the young upwarding mobile stage. This is the one use to impress people. In private she can be a ***** and she only does what she wants. Going camping is out of the question, she only wants to be on a track where she can show off her beauty and legs. You are desperate to marry this one so you ignore all times she scares the crap out of you.

The Millie is the girl you go out when you on your worldly kick. You are bored with the locals and she is the one with the foreign accent. She is like the 600 but you don't have the money or class to keep her but what a ride. The R-1 without the baggage.



Hey I am not going to make the same mistake twice, I am keeping my ZX-6R for awhile. She is fun, forgiving, flirtatous, and she goes with me anywhere. Great article mind me stop and think about why I ride. Good to see again BLM.

KPaulCook 06-14-2002 06:52 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Hey I am just glad he is alive and kickin. I thought I was going to have hire Mark Furman to prove I had nothin to do with his diappearance. Hey Mr. Cochran you are fired.

chrisek 06-14-2002 07:19 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Perfect timing on this article! I am keeping my friend's '02 GSX-R 750 in my garage (I ride an '01 ZX-6R) and I just can't understand how 600s (supersport) can beat these things (in supersport trim, not superbike) on a race track. It is so physically smaller than my bike, the motor rocks, and I think it weighs the same as mine! I'd like to see you guys hit the streets again with a GSX-R 600 and 750 and see what is up as I am super curious. Great article. Yes, I do love my 6R.

speedsport 06-15-2002 02:40 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Don't cha' just love JB's Conway Twitty hairdo?

floundericiousFL 06-15-2002 03:20 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
(in a very fast left with an R6 Mini-missile right up our tailpipe)



TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!

CONMAN 06-15-2002 03:23 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Great article! It reminded me why I used some common sense and bought a R6 instead of a bigger bike. The overall package of the 600's for the money and performance is hard to beat. If anyone reading this is torn between what size bike to buy, then swallow

your ego and go for the 600. You won't regreat it. Great idea to birng Burns on the crew. A big reason why I subscribed.

Keep the great articles coming!!

CONMAN 06-15-2002 03:28 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Yea, I know I spelled regret wrong. That old

fast typing finger got me again!!

Oh well.

dwr461 06-15-2002 03:47 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Good article. Good to see ya'll back in the saddle again. By the by, if anyone who knows the answer reads this, what happened to my post on the mysterious disappearence article? It no longer shows up there.



Dave

me_and_the_chicken 06-15-2002 04:22 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
>>>But the real crux of the biscuit here is logic versus emotion. Logically, a 600 (in the color you like) is all you need. EmotionallyÂ… the options spin off into the sunset, fueled by cues from personal experience and desire (and fanned by advertising grist.) Logic without emotion buys you a Civic. Emotion without logic buys you something Italian. Somewhere in between, Billy, is a bike for you!<<<



I agree with this in a lot of ways. A LOT OF WAYS!



However, I also say that a good rider is going to go fast on anything. Including something that's a bit more laid back. To me, just take what the bike has and use it to it's potential. And these bike are capable of many things.



Whatever.....


glf5810 06-15-2002 06:43 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Hey Burns where's the medallion? Anywho, all I can say is this, I'm lucky enough to have both a 2000 zx6r and a 2000 mille, (my first bike was a 1991 gn-125 so I've done my time) and since I got the Ninja first (and I do like it) I thought this was all the bike I would ever want or need but then I went crazy and got the Mille and it's the best thing I ever bought, period. Yes I hate to admit I bought it for looks and the fact that it was somewhat exclusive and Italian but what I got in return is the most fulfilling and smile inducing toy I've ever had. The ninja is fun but the mille is sex with a supermodel and it only gets better.

jmeyn 06-15-2002 07:18 AM

The Wheelie thing again
 
You said: And then onto the poor, unempowered R6. What's the deal then? Why is the bike with no torque the one that wheelies every time out of that tight little first-gear right? Gearing? Weight? Dunno.

The wheel comes up when all the weight has transferred to the rear wheel. If you can move your body forward and down far enough you can put the front wheel on the ground and convert the wheelie to rear wheelspin, the same result you see with the big boys.

The answer is gearing times torque plus too high or too far back center of gravity = wheelie. You'll exit that corner faster with incipient wheelspin then with a wheelie.

KPaulCook 06-15-2002 07:57 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Hey man, I will never criticize you on that. If someone does just say at least I am not as bad as Cook. :) I totally agree with you on the bargain or price/performance of the big 4 600s. Even Triumphs bike is a good value.

Duken4evr 06-15-2002 08:23 AM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
LOL. To carry the girl analogy a bit further, my Suzuki TL1000S is a good time blonde who has a bit of a fat butt, but is serious fun in the sack.



I know plenty of other bikes are better, but I enoy the party girl. She is amazingly low maintenance too!


Vlad 06-15-2002 11:54 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Guys, this is a great concept. I mean I enjoy watching the young studs wander into the bike shops and think that a GSXR-1000 or an R-1 will make them the fastest in creation. But it won't. I have a sick belief that anything over eighty horsepower is a waste for one up riding. In fact, anything over 65 might be a waste for a light bike. The horsepower difference can be made up in skill and handling. (Of course, I realize that somebody like Ben Bostrom or Fast Freddie can actually use all of that horsepower, but I don't think any of us are that good.)



So I have this strange idea. Use the same course at Willow, same tires, same riders. Keep a running chart of the lap times. Take some other bikes out there. I would suggest starting with the ever-popular SV650, mebbe the new Suzuki DL, add in a Ducati 900ss (maybe the 750 as well) and see how the lap times really compare. I mean this is a community service. It might convince some riders that they really don't need all of that HP. It might even prevent a few of us from an unneeded trip to the ER.



Vlad

sarnali 06-15-2002 11:55 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
he be stylin'

Blade-Rider 06-15-2002 12:07 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
I thought it was more like Jimmy Neutron's.

sarnali 06-15-2002 12:11 PM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
I can relate to that analogy, my '01 1200s bandit is like the "mature" woman you hook up with ,after you become invisible to the sweet young hotties { age 40 or so, it seems} not quite as tight or fresh looking, but treat her just right, and she can rock your world all day long

SeanAlexander 06-15-2002 02:06 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
At Streets of Willow a properly set-up, stock motored SV-650 on DOTs will do 1:27.5s all day long and properly set-up supersport legal GSXR 6 / R-6 / CBR 6s on DOTs will do low 1:23s. I think you need a few guest testers to bring thier street legal, no internal mods bikes to the track to help with a super comparo. I'll volunteer to bring the SV.

westland 06-15-2002 02:14 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Great article, and I'd like to see more comparisons across different classes of bikes. I own a 2000 R6 which is my all time favorite bike... it looks good, it's comfortable, it's flickable. I'll never get the sort of times your testers get, so it's great to see how good the bike is in the hands of someone who's really fast.



I also agree with the post on the 'right tool' ... I also own an XJR1200 (nicely customized) which is my idea of what Harleys would look and feel like if they just had some class (flame away) as well as a VFR400 which I keep at the track. Real luxury, since I can choose what fits my mood. I'm not sure I would trade any of my bikes in their particular class.



Chris Westland -- Hong Kong

KPaulCook 06-15-2002 07:25 PM

Vlad has a great idea MO ARE YOU LISTENING
 
Great idea. For those of us prone to limited dimensional thinking i.e. the quarter mile times, hp and torque etc. it would be good to broaden our perspective and laps times at a track are really a better way to measure the performance of a sport bike. I would like to see the Buell Firebolt thrown in to see how it does against the SV. Although the Bolt did well in the Cycle World track test, the ever present H-D skeptic in me says it was rigged due to the inclusion of the skid pad where the Buell would have a distinct advantage. i.e take the skid pad out of the course and CBRs and Ceptors walk away from it.

KPaulCook 06-15-2002 07:31 PM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
1200 S is a great bike. I saw a MSF instructor rip up the MSF test with once. i.e just to prove to us squids it could be done in the right hands. I thought about getting one for touring and commuting on.

KPaulCook 06-15-2002 07:35 PM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
I can definitely see the resemblance of the TL and a good time blonde. The TL was the first bike I sat on at a dealer so I was definitely drawn to her. But fornuately, the salesman like a big brother steered me away to her little sisters, "Son that girl is way to much for you given your lack of experience. Always loved the looks. of both the TLs. The SV looks like her little sister a little less developed (boobs and butt)

Steve781 06-16-2002 04:21 AM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
Your loss may have been my gain. Your old college girlfriend/600 matured, got a job in marketing at a big company, filled out in a good way, and morphed into my '01 Interceptor. She traded in her bikini top and cut-off shorts for a little black dress. Add a touch of make-up or a coat of wax and she's as hot as anything at bike night. She is also more than willing to go moto-camping for 4 days. And she is still low maintenance enough to drink beer/87 octane. Track days? Yeah, she's game for it and will acquit herself well.

KPaulCook 06-16-2002 05:38 AM

Re: If these bikes were women
 
I am glad she happy like I said I was young and stupid. 87 octane looks good right now. Compared with the Zxers required 92.

KPaulCook 06-16-2002 05:50 AM

Two new girls moving to town
 
Old man Kawaski says he gets custody of his daughters in September (Kawasaki Rumors: New ZX-6R and ZX-10R www.motorcycledaily.com). Given the man's reputation for giving us fast women (ZX-12R), do you dare try the 10R???? Or you man enough? Hey I got all summer to get ready. time for some track days and some time in the gym. Good day to take the little woman (ZX-6R) for a spin.


buella_1 06-16-2002 06:38 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Nice article. But, I'd like to see a much broader comparo. Especially the sv650(s) and xb9r and maybe an rc51 just for broader perspective on the twins. The $17,000 Mille R is a bit of a stretch, but understand they wouldn't give out their lesser bike.



moremoremorecomparos



yummy!

Rob-SV650 06-16-2002 07:37 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Good idea!



Actually I'd like to see how the SV650 with Racetech springs and cartridge emulators and an Ohlins, Penske or Fox shock in back would do against the 600's - the bike would still be less expensive than anything else mentioned. The stock SV suspension really is cheap compared to what the other bikes get, so I don't think this would be unfair given the still-lower total cost.



Tires would of course be standardized and the Sprotec M1's used here are a great choice.

SeanAlexander 06-16-2002 01:53 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Speaking from expierience (SV w/ Racetech & Ohlins) the modern 600 inline four is about 3 seconds a lap faster at Streets of Willow with the same rider (me) the 600 gains all of its time from the apex of turn 8 (the increasing radius, banked "bowl" at the back of the track) to the "messes" (the high speed esses at the end of the back straight) and from the apex of the final "Skidpad" turn to the braking zone of turn one. Don't get me wrong, the SV is no slouch, but the 600 has about the same mid-corner speed coupled with much much stronger accelleration off of the corners and down the straights. There are a few areas where the more nimble "friendlier" SV will gain on the 600 at the Streets, but in all the power advantage of the inline 4 more than makes up for it.

jmeyn 06-16-2002 03:16 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
Please record my vote for SeanAlexander for reality check editor of Motorcycle Online.

Regarding this post, 3 seconds surely covers the gap for a really good rider over a thinks-he's-good rider which more than makes up for the power advantage...



Thanks again, Sean.

edfedup 06-16-2002 04:04 PM

I think I'm getting my money's worth
 
$11.95 a year.

Eh, sure beats Kent Kunitsugu and his trash-can lining magazine.



Can that guy ever come up with a new idea?

fujinator 06-16-2002 07:29 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
I'd take it even one step further and say that logic without emotion yields "you aren't really going to ride a motorcycle are you?"



So logic ends up being yet another method for rationalizing what our heart really wants in a bike (and god how I truly love the number of choices out in the marketplace, as well as those choices yet to come :-).

Abe_Froman 06-16-2002 08:36 PM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
These results don't completely surprise me. I have always thought that given the opportunity to have some track time, I would like a GSXR600 rather than my R1. However, those that would rag on guys (and girls) that buy open-class streetbikes because "they think it makes them faster" are way off base. I think I would be faster on a track on a 600, but frankly, the torque and relative "couch" characteristics of my R1 are thoroughly enjoyable on the street. The problem with 600s (compared to 1000s) on the street is that in order to go fast, you must flog them as if you were on the track all the time. Not neccessary with open-class torque; just twist the throttle and away you go. My opinion for amatuers like us----keep the R1 for the street, buy the R6 for the track.

Fugger 06-17-2002 03:21 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
You *****!



'Duh, it might prevent an unneeded trip to the ER.' Only a moron doesn't realize the HP didn't get you into the ER, it was the rider. Just like the article states, you'll be just as fast or faster on the R6. Therefore, just as apt to crash on it, too. Did you actually ponder what you said, or just slobered out some meaningless diatribe to impress yourself by the sight of your own words?

SeanAlexander 06-17-2002 05:22 AM

Rider differences...
 
As for rider skill to lap time equations (Streets of Willow):



Slowest 600cc amateurs: 1:35ish

Slowest SV amateurs: 1:36 - 1:37ish



Mid pack 600 experts: 1:28ish

Mid pack SV experts: 1:31ish



Fastest 600 experts: 1:23ish

Fastest SV experts: 1:27ish



As you can see, it appears that as rider skill increases, the lap time difference between the two bikes also increases (probably do to the extra H.P. and because user friendlieness is not as much of a factor for the really fast guys)

SeanAlexander 06-17-2002 05:44 AM

Re: Rider differences...
 
I forgot to mention:



It is important to note that as a rider's skills increase, typically their set-up skills also increase. Meaning, I can turn 1:27s on my personal SV, but If I hopped on a new amateurs SV with the same bolt-on mods, but without the set-up sorted, I might be turning 1:29s



If there WAS an IROC type system where we all rode IDENTICLE bikes, the 10 second per lap difference, might be more like 6 or 7.

KPaulCook 06-17-2002 06:31 AM

Give me a break.. Problem with 600s?? You are so out of touch. re you a Harley rider?
 
When is the last time you rode a 600? I suspect from your comments its been awhile. I disagree with your comments i.e. my ZX-6R has plenty of torque etc for the street. In fact the ZX-6R races against 750s in the superstock class. http://www.amadirectlink.com/prohead.htm



See also (see reviewers comments about how far 600s have come):

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/25feb...x6rreview.html

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/05apr...f4ireview.html



Bottom line is modern 600s have plenty of torque etc for the street. [b] Ride a new one and find out for yourself. ,/b.

yogre 06-17-2002 06:38 AM

Re: What Size Victory? 600? Openbike? Twin?
 
I couldn't agree with you more. I have a '01 Mille R that replaced a very competent '00 CBR600F4. I switched not because the CBR couldn't go as fast but rather because the Mille is way more fun to ride. I really don't care if I go slower on the Mille than I did on the Honda, in fact, I'm pretty certain that it will be a while till I get as comfortable on the Mille as I was on the CBR (which is a very easy bike to get comfortable with).



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.