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Old 02-11-2003, 08:36 AM   #11
seruzawa
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Default Re: Yamaha Shuts Down, Then Licenses To, FZ-1 Site

Funny how the ranter never mentioned that he was selling copyrighted material. Sort of reminds me of the old Internet "Free Speech" crusade. There was far too much of intellectual properties being stolen and then the thieves tried to cover up their thefts as some sort of free speech issue.



Unfortunately for many of them the courts weren't buying it.
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Old 02-11-2003, 08:46 AM   #12
banda
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Default Re: Thanks for the Additional Information

Perhaps Yamaha relented and granted license to the web site because the law wasn't completely on their side. Take a look at this Fair Use FAQ [www.eff.org]


Fair use, which is a limitation of exclusive copyrights, is held up by courts in cases where the reproduction of the work falls into the following categories:

[*]The work is more factual than creative[*]The copyright holder is denied their commercial opportunity to profit from the work[*]The reproduction is not for commercial purposes


Certainly a user manual is a factual document. I'd hate to think it was a work of fiction, but after owning a few Italian motorcycles, I can see why a manual author might claim creative ownership.


Next, I think it's pretty clear that Yamaha is in the motor vehicle business much more so than the publishing business. The audience for a FZ-1 manual is pretty much limited to consumers from whom Yamaha has already exacted their profit - in the form of a motorcycle sale. Also, I'd like to point out that each and every original owner of a Yamaha FZ-1 should have been furnished with a FZ-1 user manual at the time of purchase. If fair use guarantees that it's legal for them to make a backup copy of a work that they have already licensed, then what's the difference if someone else makes that backup copy for them?


Finally, I have a hard time believing that the enthusiast web site had any grand design of making their fortune selling user manual re-prints. I could believe that the enthusiast might ask for the cost of shipping and printing from the receiver to defreay the expenses incurred. I bet the user manual re-print was a friendly service provided almost exclusively to people who already held a license to the work, and that there was very little profit motive involved in the reproductions.


You sound like you're just itching to give your rights away to the first bully who will take them. Fortunately, there are patriots among us who won't roll over so easily. Don't take claims of "piracy" at face value. The framers of the United States constitution were very specific in not allowing any person or entity to "own" information.
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Old 02-11-2003, 08:59 AM   #13
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Default Re: Yamaha Shuts Down, Then Licenses To, FZ-1 Site

This seems pretty mild compared to the way Harley Davidson handles their copyrite infringment cases.



Booo Harley.
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: Yamaha Shuts Down, Then Licenses To, FZ-1 Site

"Anyway, shame on them for stealing stuff, shame on longride and MO for posting this without first following up, and this leaves the question: If someone was stealing your work product and re-selling it, would you let them license it after-the-fact or sue them back to the stone ages?"



How about just having them take it down instead of going the C&D route? This was a site promoting their products and informing their owners, not pirating for profit. A simple letter to remove the offending material would have sufficed, I am sure. This site never got a letter, but got a C&D order to shut down the site or transfer ownership to Yamaha. Anything that was posted here at MO was not untrue. Yamaha lawyers just went to shut them down, period, with no warning. Yamaha claimed to have no knowledge of what was done. The site currently is still not posting any Yamaha logo, pictures, and even the site URL is in question at this point. Even though the sued ranter was going off on Yamaha, I think he certainly objected to the heavy-handed treatment more than anything. Both sides of every story are not always posted here. That's why follow-ups can be posted. When Harley had a class action suit filed against them, nobody ever went to Harley to ask their side of the case. We only posted the plaintiffs case, which certainly could have been a complete lie and fabrication. I checked the site in question and they are still shut down by a C & D order from Yamaha. So let me answer the question of what I would do if somebody is "stealing my stuff". So, I have someone that is stealing my stuff and making practically nothing because of it, yet is promoting my products heavily and has certainly increased the marketing, loyality, and sales of my product without me paying a dime. Hmmmm. Anyone could figure a phone call or letter explaining the copyright infringement, and why it needs to be removed, with an offer of licensing, would have solved the problem easily. That's my take.
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Thanks for the Additional Information

Well, now the update says Yamaha has NOT granted license to the entusiast site.


I say "so what?". I don't believe the enthusiast site needs license from Yamaha to reproduce the user manual. Fair use should be enough to allow people to assist each other with the back up and recovery of legitimately licensed works.


Unfortunately, the enthusiast site probably doesn't have the resources to make their case. Just proves that bullies will get their way in today's legal climate.


If you disagree, think about this for a minute: If you and I both own FZ-1s, and you lost your user manual, should it be illegal for me to tell you how many quarts of oil it takes? Or how many miles between valve adjustments? Should that information really be protected so vigorously that you and I can't discuss it? Is that what we all want?
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:26 AM   #16
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Default STRANGE THAT MT POST GOT DELETED, M.O.

Care to explain?
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: STRANGE THAT MT POST GOT DELETED, M.O.

And you've got the info really screwed up, too.



The guy's post you link to isn't even involved except that he's a regular poster.



Please get your facts straight.

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Old 02-11-2003, 09:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: STRANGE THAT MT POST GOT DELETED, M.O.

Someone just moderated it down, that's all. You can get it back up by moderating it the other way. Or set your threshold to -1 and it'll never happen to you or anyone elses post.



Still, I can't stand it when people are too lazy and cowardly to post an intelligent response, rather than just moderating someone else's post. Hope this helps.
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Old 02-11-2003, 09:53 AM   #19
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Default Defending Yamaha

1. If you have ever hired a tech writer like I have, you know that manuals cost money. Good manuals don't come on trees.

2. I am sure Yamaha was directed by its lawyer this course because there are good legal reasons behind doing a C&D rather than asking please. Reading the rant and see this guys attitude, I think Yamaha did the right thing. This guy is way off.

3. Stealing is wrong and don't expect the person stolen from, Yamaha, to bend over backwards to the thief.



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Old 02-11-2003, 09:58 AM   #20
JohnGeisz
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Default Re: Yamaha Shuts Down, Then Licenses To, FZ-1 Site

As someone who frequents the site linked to your article, let me put a few of the facts before you, as I understand them.



Noone at the site in question copied anything. (One of the posters to the board posted a link to another site to a full .pdf file of the Yamaha service manual, not a copy, and whatever site that was on, the download was free)



Other sites that had nothing to do with the service manual were shut down, too. Sites that had people posting techniques for mods and basic maintenence.



Most of the people on that board understand and respect ownership and property. I think it's a bit unfair to categorize them as plagiarists and poachers.



It looks like Yamaha is simply trying to rightfully protect it's 60 dollar a copy manual, and that they have just taken too broad a stroke.



BTW, I too think it's funny when people say they'll never buy another Yamaha, but hey, sometimes people get touchy about these things.



Thanks.



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