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Old 12-20-2001, 09:18 AM   #21
starvingstudent
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Default Re: EPA To Adopt CA Streetbike Emission Standards

Fair enough. When I said "two-strokes," I meant two-stroke engines, not specifically two-stroke motorcycles. Leaf-blowers, lawnmowers, and outboard motors are the biggest offenders. There may not be many RZs on the road, but how many of those d@mned leaf-blowers do I have to see, smell, and listen to each day?
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Old 12-20-2001, 09:39 AM   #22
Poser
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Default A RANT

I felt a rant coming on when I read the article, but you just pushed me over the edge!



I was commuting across a floating bridge between my house and my job, looking at all the cars and lots of trucks and truck/ cars. They were backed up on a big concrete ramp, waiting to get onto the big concrete freeway. They always glare at me out of their tinted windows when I storm past them in the carpool lane. It was raining, so the peg was off the ground and I had some time to think.



We are motorcycle riders, so we like to go fast, change directions, and use and enjoy all kinds of roads. Most of the commuters do what they do because they cannot think of any other way to live.



The road that this mass of lemmings was choking takes up a huge amount of land and cost many millions of dollars to construct. Roads cost some immense amount of cash and other resources every mile. This huge GOVERNMENT investment amounts to a tax fueled subsidy for the automobile and energy industries.



Sooooo... I hear politicians talking about cutting subsidies to Amtrak and other forms of public transportation. "They cannot compete on an equal footing, so we should not prop up these loosers." Where do these idiots think the Cadillac Escalade with chrome wheels and low profile tires would go if the same government entities did not build roads?



My proposal: Spend the money we now spend on road construction and repair on various kinds of mass transit. Off grade trains of various kinds make the most sense to me. Give the lemmings a way to get around without pooping out tons of NO2 and CO and CO2 every minute. Quit subsidizing the idiots who wouldn't know an interesting road if it bit them. Not to mention that a train is a concentrated polluter that can be managed much more effectively than four zillion vehicles.



The need for road maintenance would decline, and those of us who really enjoy carving up roads could do so on smaller, more interesting roads without having to dodge the dimwit in his Lincoln Navigator. He could drink coffee and talk on his cell phone much more effectively and safely on a commuter train. I would even commute on a train, given the opportunity, and enjoy the bike when I could really enjoy it.



I might even be willing to give up the juvenile thrill of making sparks on on-ramps and shooting the gap between a bus and the guardrail every evening on the way home.
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Old 12-20-2001, 09:49 AM   #23
Poser
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Default Re: um, is this Liberal out-of-the-closet Day???

Wow! I am agreeing with you, more or less. I tend to be a philosophical libertarian who votes for Democrats as a practical matter, but...



SUVs are the anti-Christ!



However, liberals or reactionaries (ops, they call themselves conservatives) didn't cause the mess. Feel-good politics that kept gasoline prices down did. All sides are guilty of subsidizing SUVs.



As long as we are doing dumb regulations, I propose a study. In that study, we will discover that people with motorcycle endorsements are safer cage drivers (because they KNOW how to pay attention and how critical that is). We will then ban all drivers who cannot pass a motorcycle riding test.



Waddaya think? Would it turn some SUVs into SVs?
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Old 12-20-2001, 10:29 AM   #24
jamesohoh7
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Default Re: EPA To Adopt CA Streetbike Emission Standards

(uh oh, 'strokers under fire!?... man the torpedos! )



I'm with ya, Bro! Leave my RZ and TZR and KX out of this goofy band-aid solution that is largely just a show to placate the enviro-nuts and give them a sense of self-righteousness. They do this kind of stuff so they can try to sleep soundly at night b/c they "did -something- to solve the problem"... bah! Never mind the fact that what they did will do almost zilch in the grand scheme while adding $$ to costs of production and so on. We wind up paying for that, and in the exchange we get a -miniscule- improvement in the environment from bikes and the big polluters just keep on going and wipe out that improvement anyway.



I don't have a problem with wanting to fix up the laws and so on to have a cleaner planet. I don't want to see the fish killed off or the trees dead either. I just get tired of seeing these 1/2-baked 0.00005% solutions touted as 'real improvements!' because 'we gotta start somewhere!'. They never seem to get going very far after they do these first small steps from what I've seen over the years. If they're not willing to go after the big fish, then they can choke on my 'strokers smoke!! When they banned new 'strokers in the 80's ..-that- was supposed to be 'the start of something big'. Ha!.. right... we've gone from everyone driving mid-sized, smallish cars then to behemoth SUV's that choke up the roads and guzzle gas like crazy. SOME IMPROVEMENT, eh!? In the process, sure some -car- standards were put in place.. no doubt. But, b/c of exemptions given to these trucks then and now, they are STILL the major polluters and yet we have no more new 'strokers and hardly anything has changed since that -last- 'start of something big'. Who's to say we wouldn't have seen improvment in 'stroker technology to make them cleaner?... It exists today even in the face of such bias against it. With any kind of support, it'd probably be a lot farther along.



Yeah yeah.. I know.. I only have the one issue that I rant about... so sue me!



I guess my argument is that it's just frustrating to see the unfair treatment handed out and we're just supposed to take it b/c, on some level, these tiny improvements to the problem do help. So, if you object you're branded an 'earth killer' and selfish. However, if you agree, they claim victory and stop there having 'done something' ("woohoo!, we did something!.. let's all pile into my SUV and go to S-bucks for coffee and cookies!"). At this pace, the earth will crumble before the real problem sources are dealt with.



-James
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Old 12-20-2001, 10:39 AM   #25
jamesohoh7
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Default Re: Save the Earth, Build a Mall

Damn skippy, Lincoln!



Absolutely! They built the biggest doggone mall I've ever seen 3 miles from my house a couple of years ago. I can't even begin to describe how large it is.. the parking lot is immense! Every weekend it is filled with moms in SUV's toting one or two children around (on average). Yeah, that's a reason to have one... gotta have room for ALL THOSE KIDDIES!



I only know one guy who can legitimately claim to need the space of a Suburban b/c he has like 6 kids or something. He finally figured out what was causing that and got it fixed though



The majority of the time, you see one kid snugged down in the middle of the 2nd row of seats... VERY good use of space there, eh?



I don't remember how the SUV trend started and the station wagon trend ended, but someone needs to reverse that trend so at least we could get these folks into vehicles that have tougher emissions standards. THAT would be a major step.

I don't pretend to know how to accomplish that feat though, but I sure won't just 'try something' and hope it works either.



-James

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Old 12-20-2001, 11:01 AM   #26
Copper
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Default Re: This cause is no good.

I used to work for the EPA.



There are two reasons why these regs will be in place.



1. The AMA and other motorcycling lobbies are not nearly as strong as say, the trucking and cage lobbies.



2. The EPA looks like it's "doing something" to help the environment.



This first point is not to be taken as lightly as it sounds. The EPA has lost repeatedly to the Diesel Community in court. It also spends a lot of time and energy attempting to assign blame to particulate matter pollution (PM2.5) in the form of receptor modelling and source apportionment studies which have been largely unsuccessful thus far. Why? Because diesels emit lots of particles, and don't burn nearly as cleanly as catalytic gasoline engines.



In the meanwhile, the second argument follows. The EPA cannot be inert, it has to be doing *something*, thus regs. on vehicles whose emission inventory is not even a blip on a model. You can essentially remove motorcycles (if they exist at all) from the model and come up with essentially the same pollution levels.



Which brings us back to the first point: The EPA can the manufacturer and consumer with inferior motorcycles at a higher cost with impunity.



As for the person who brought up the two stroke engine contribution to pollution, depending upon the tropospheric condition, it can be pretty negiglible to the overall production of ozone and PM in the region.
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Old 12-20-2001, 11:36 AM   #27
TommyJefferson
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Default HA! Well Said Lincoln!

"It's very apparent to me that women are winning the war. Why else would there be 73 shopping malls within 100 square miles of me, yet only 1 tiny motocross track?!"



HAahhahaAHa!



Man, that's the best thing I've read all week.
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Old 12-20-2001, 11:50 AM   #28
alanheng
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Default Re: More reason to buy Italian

mid_ohio_jeff, that's an interesting theory...



One problem with it, though, is that most of the manufacturers (Yamaha aside), don't produce aftermarket performance parts.



I bought my exhaust from Vance and Hines, which I am sure contribute no revenue to Suzuki, or any of the other manufacturers (Harley included).



Frankly, I'm not going to complain if manufacturers deliver the bikes a bit lean to meet EPA regs because all it takes is about $20 worth of main jets and pilot screws, and an hours worth of my time to correct the problem. And many of us who ride sport bikes replace the exhaust any way... so I don't see much harm in the stock pipe being somewhat restrictive (though, for the Db/hp, stock pipes are usually the most efficient when you compare the amount of power generated per decible of noise).



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Old 12-20-2001, 03:28 PM   #29
12ball
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Default once again the M/C community gets bit in the a$$....

seems to me this is proof that the auto industry lobbyists are far more powerful and able to pass the blame for ALL THAT pollution onto a less organized and effective demographic: motorcyclists. too bad we're so splinterred into brand-specific groups and clubs that we can't all unite and make a loud enough voice to prove that we're not the biggest culprit spewing crap into the air when our motors are running (ok and for some of us while our mouths are, too...)



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Old 12-20-2001, 03:38 PM   #30
luvmyvfr
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Default Do you live in Bellevue or Seattle?

You describe what I encounter every time I cross the lake on the floating bridge. I don't think lightrail would work though, but only because the Govt. is trying to make it work. Pathetic.



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