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Old 09-27-2001, 10:36 AM   #51
stevegrab
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

That's a great response, with a good amount of facts to back it up. Particularly the part about the amount of CO2 you produce being proportional to the fuel consumption.



I wonder where this guy gets off thinking that 2 SUVs together produce half the pollutants as a 99 Civic. (Which would make the Civic 4 times the polluter of these SUVs.) He must be inhaling his own exhaust gas.



Plus I love how he makes a statement like its fact, then tells us to "check on it ourself". Well if you already checked the statistics Mr. John Geisz, why don't you provide them too us.



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Old 09-27-2001, 10:50 AM   #52
stevegrab
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

I don't know about your numbers (small percentage of world population and close to 25% of pollution), but I do acknowledge that it is disproportionate. And also realize that other countries do better.



But you do see the primary point of people who are complaining here (and on another story about stricter regs for street bikes, including requiring FI and catalytic converters). They're wasting their time going after a group of vehicles that contribute such a small percentage of the total pollution.



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Old 09-27-2001, 11:25 AM   #53
hindle
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

Damn you couldn't have hit the nail on the head any better then that.



It's to bad the motorcycle industry can't buy a congressman like the coal burning electric companies. SUV's and 2-stroke bikes and all the other crap probably don't even come close to the pollution put out by electric companies burnning coal.



Like you said the EPA can't touch them so they screw with us little guys.
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Old 09-27-2001, 11:57 AM   #54
JohnGeisz
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

The sky is falling dammit... run!
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Old 09-27-2001, 12:36 PM   #55
Abe_Froman
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Default OK,

I did not accuse ALL scientists of being knee-jerk liberals. Just the ones that are irrevocably wedded to the idea of global warming. One reasonable objection to the theory: A meteorologist will tell you that the many of the locations in which temperatures are recorded are in urban areas, near ground level, especially the readings taken many years ago in the days of yore. These measurements are heavily affected by nearby human activity and the radiant heat emitted by seas of blacktop and concrete, making them innacurate and irrelevant.
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Old 09-27-2001, 12:50 PM   #56
JohnGeisz
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

Actually, there is so little CO emitted, I hardly see spots anymore.



My information came from a chart on the wall of a "Missouri Gateway Clean Air Program" center. I've looked for the same statistics from the EPA online, but actual numbers are really hard to find. They combine, in my opinion, rather illogical factors to conclude oversimplified 'ratings.'



Rather than trying to snap a picture of the chart for you, can you point me to some actual measured statistics per vehicle, and show me their sources?



I was inquisitive about the numbers I saw on the chart, too. I was lead to believe as I looked at the hugely varied statistics in the widely varied list of vehicles, large and small, that actual emissions, other than CO2 (of course) had more to do with how the vehicle was tuned, and how efficiently it burned fuel.



Aside my 2 V-8 evil death machines... my point is, I think Motorcycle Online is an ironic place for people to be discussing the extiction of a certain class of motorcycles. ATV riders wish there were no dirt bikers. Harley riders wish no Jap or Euro bikes were allowed on the roads. People in cars wish they didn't have to share the road with us, too.



I have a variety of 6 bikes, from a CR500 to a very clean fuel injected 4... and even if I disagree with your politics, or your bike choice... if I see you stopped on the side of the road, I'm going to see if I can help you. Maybe that means I'm stupid, but if we can't try to keep the riding community together, instead of jumping on with people whose motives may not be the preservation of motorcycling, we will be put through a 'hell' of regulations.



All of us, even if we ride the safest, cleanest scoots, need to try to understand each other. I think even the most environmentally alarmist contributors here would agree that there are OTHER logical polluting targets that DO NOT run on two wheels... and if you give a crap about other motorcyclists, maybe you could go after them first.



Thanks.
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Old 09-27-2001, 12:51 PM   #57
Abe_Froman
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Default Really?

The only reason these other countries have "accepted" these "social controls for non-market effects" is because they do not have either the resources or the capability (maybe they lack both) to create industries that can produce bothersome levels of pollution. In a sense, they have nothing to lose by agreeing. Given the chance, they would ditch such controls in a heartbeat if it was beneficial to those in power (or the people at large if it is a democratic society we are speaking of.)



The bottom line is this----we can theoretically have anything we want. We can have clean electricity, clean two-strokes, clean SUV's, clean farms, clean anything! As long as we don't mind $250 a month electric bills or $5 apiece for apples and oranges, anything is possible. Of course, a large portion of even the wealthy American population cannot afford this, but what the heck---
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Old 09-27-2001, 01:00 PM   #58
starvingstudent
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

Amen! Great post, Hondachop.
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Old 09-27-2001, 07:03 PM   #59
Patrick-of-the-Hills
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Default Yes, really.

Maybe I should have been more specific; nations like Japan and Germany and Great Britain and a number of others certainly do have both the resources (or access to resources) and the capability to make a monumental mess of things. What prevents that from happening is, first, the ability of those governments to craft meaningful and workable legislation, and second and more importantly, the willingness of the populations of those states to act in a more thoughtful, less destructive manner in the first place, and also to accept the need for such legislation. Social control is personal control.



Lest anyone play slippery slope with me, my belief in the need for environmental legislation stops far, far short of communism. Having personally witnessed the debilitating damage caused by decades of exhaust from poorly-tuned two-stroke motors on the architecture of Dresden (an effect that rapidly approached that of the February '45 Allied bombardment, in decay if not rubble, before West German environmental laws took effect), never mind the exposure of such outrages as the Soviet open-air nuclear dumping grounds, I have no faith whatsoever in a centrally-planned government's ability to clean up after itself.



And yes, theoretically we can have anything we want. Theoretically I could go through a bottle of Krug champagne and a pint of Ben & Jerry's Heath Bar Crunch a day, then do a full-throttle blast up to Ithaca on my full-race R1 (or drive my Porsche 917K if it's raining) and score with a different girl each night. Sounds good, no? However, if I don't want to end up alcoholic, arteriosclerotic, wrapped around a tree, in jail for a 185 in a 55, outrageously in debt, and a walking catalog of STDs and paternity suits (choose one or more), I must live a more rational, less exciting life. Consequences, sometimes unintended, sometimes not immediately apparent, are part of everything each of us does, no matter how much one may want to do something in the first place. With pollution, those effects aren't as personal or as immediate; if you dump your old sump oil into the sewer, it doesn't immediately affect you, but it does eventually do damage to everything drinking from that water system. Same goes with the air and everything we put into it, except it happens in a number of different ways; the law of unintended (but unavoidable) consequences bites us all.



I don't talk about this stuff because I particularly enjoy it; to be honest, it'd be great if these problems didn't exist and we could be as uninhibited as possible. But we as a society can't go on pretending that what we do is harmless; we have to face up to the damage being done, and do something to correct it.
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Old 09-27-2001, 07:26 PM   #60
Patrick-of-the-Hills
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Default Re: No More Two-Strokes

His numbers are accurate. (US population of 300 million/world population of 6 billion = 5%, and that 25% figure is pretty broadly accepted on all sides).



And really, it's not just a matter of going after a small target that's easily pinned (although that's true), but also finding something that causes some noticeable damage and can be reduced without a real quality-of-life drop. I mean, let's be real here: How many people are going to suffer in some significant manner if two-stroke motorcycles and ATVs aren't available in five years?
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