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Old 12-04-2005, 12:18 PM   #81
emxgarcia
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

Hmm an what a about the drunken politician that masacred the biker in an intersection.... free already.. isn't he?

An this guy get 30 years for a very thinly related incident.. Jesus-f&*^#-Christ where are we heading!!!
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Old 12-04-2005, 05:06 PM   #82
sarnali
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

I'm not anti police in anyway. I think for the most part they're fair and reasonable doing a job and dealing with a class of people I wouldn't want anything to do with. However I also know that some people have issues and some of those people are Police Officers, it was my misfortune to be riding a chopped Harley and attract the attention of a couple of new-hires in the APD during the time the Bandido's were engaging in their usual foolishness.



It wasn't till the State Patrol inspector I subpeoned chastized them in court for their incompetence that they backed off. To cap the story off, the "ringleader" of the little cadre` is now the Chief of Police. Guess where I don't live.....



I think the Police in general do a great job, but an ass with a badge and gun is still an ass.
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:00 AM   #83
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

The problem with the ass with the badge and a gun is that he can do a lot more damage to the rights and lives of others than can the average citizen. Regardless of their character, the vast majority of police believe (with good reason) that they can treat the citizenry pretty much however they want, and get away with it. Some are still fair, many are not.



The problem is in the power a licensed LEO weilds. Let the police officer bear the full responsibility of his mistakes, both in instances like this chase, and when rights are violated. There was a time in America when law enforcement was treated no different than anyone else if they were found to be acting without cause. No probable cause to use their police powers? Then they were, for all legal intents and purposes, a plain 'ol citizen committing de facto assault, and they were held criminally liable for it. Let's bring that back.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:13 AM   #84
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

"accountable for any other charges and punished severely since he could have killed any innocent bystander like one of our families."





This concern should be considered offensive to American sensitivities. Unfortunate that it no longer is. Anything can be justified in the name of the children ("families"), hence the reason that it is an illegitimate legal opinion. As longride said elsewhere, that someone ran from the police does not give the police unlimited practical and legal power to do anything they choose about it. Order in society is desireable, but not at any cost. The idea that we are going to keep order not by normal and traditional societal means, but with a professional police force granted abnormal powers, is already questionable at best. That we are going to complicate someone else's reckless behavior by legally applauding the state's similar and even worse reckless behavior in response is ridiculous.



Let's think about this for a second before we willingly toss out hundreds of years of legal precedent and hand fantastic and sweeping new powers over to government (the deed is done, I'm being rhetorical). Perhaps a little history lesson is in order.



Our legal system is based on English/western common law. Once upon a time, it was understood that creation of risk was not a crime per se. It needed to be accompanied by damages. Someone or something needed to be hurt. This has changed. What we have done in America, with speed limits, DUI laws, gun laws, drug laws, this, that, and the other thing, is criminalize the creation of risk itself. This is a fundamental change in in not just the scope but the very nature of our legal system's foundation, and generally the kind of thing you find in blatantly tyrannical states (think Soviet Russia, or insert your own pet autocracy.) Once government has the authority to criminalize your behavior in spite of the fact that it actually caused no harm, the door to abject tyranny is flung open. It leaves us with reduced liberty, and I argue that the damage is largely done already. We don't need to be under the thumb of a genocidal regime to be less free or even unfree.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:21 AM   #85
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

He had neither the choice to accept the advantages nor the disadvantages, just like myself. I was born here.



What a statist like yourself might consider an advantage is open to interpretation. Morever, since the rules have apparently changed over time (the Constitution being a dead letter and all), all bets are off in terms of being beholden to some ill-defined societal contract.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:30 AM   #86
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

Robbing a bank is a crime with demonstrable damages. Speeding is not a crime per se. It is the creation of risk. As I explained elsewhere in this thread, the criminalization of risk itself, without accompanying damages, is a recent phenomenon in western law, one that turns it on its head.



Not only should the rider not have any culpability in the officer's death, as the officer's death resulted not from the rider speeding but from the state's response to it, but the officer should be postumousthly tried and convicted of reckless driving and vehicular assault because of the other vehicular victim struck by the officer. Officers that give chase to vehicles for traffic infractions should be held personally and legally responsible for the results. Traffic offenses are NEVER EVER reason to chase someone.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:33 AM   #87
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

"There has to be the ability for police to pursue, otherwise I could walk away from every crime, couldn't I? Who wouldn't chase a perp who just beat up your Grandmother for her purse? Why can't the police? Are they only allowed to use Tennies not Chevys?"





Beating up granny is a crime with demonstrable damages and a clear victim. Speeding, and speeding alone, without accompanying damages to someone or something else, is an entirely different matter, and should be treated completely differently under the law. Once upon a time, it was. It was called common law and it is the basis for our legal system. However, now our legal system exists merely to keep the citizenry in line, not preserve their freedom.
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:26 PM   #88
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

"Donald Williams had to have known that going 150 MPH on a motorcycle could result in someones death, and besides, it is a police officers job to pursue violators."



Actualy it's not, not in this case. He was actualy going against his department's policy.



And yes, going 150mph can result in someones death, but so can going 65, and what is a lot more likely to case someone else's death is a car trying to follow that motorcycle. (which is probably why that's against the policy of the department)



What gets me even more is the death was caused by a tire blow out, which has absolutly nothing to do with the motorcyclist.
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Old 12-05-2005, 01:38 PM   #89
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

30 years is a gross miscarriage of justice. Jail time? Most definitely, IMHO. I think any reasonable interpretation of the law would require Williams to spend some time thinking about the part he played here, again IMHO...I believe 30 years is way over the top, to say the least and would love to vent the more colorful opinion I have of this.



Sounds like most here understand Williams acted stupidly. Most should also concede that the FHP showed poor judgement in ignoring his own procedures. FHP has higher standard of behavior/training, should be held to higher standard of accountability for their actions...i.e., FHP is liable in this accident to a great extent.



To say it is a tragedy is an understatment on so many levels. Two lives destroyed. I'd posit that if Williams was in a car he would have acted in the same way and all things being equal (race, chase, FHP accident) he would have gotten a lesser sentence. Unfortunate, but that's the reality for motorcyclists in most cases.



I'll remember this the next time someone in a car wants to prove something to me on the road and that right hand starts getting heavy...
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:19 PM   #90
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Default Re: Motorcyclist gets 30 years for causing trooper's death.

I agree totally, since our justice codes were based from the code of Hammurabi (sp?) which evolved into english common law. There are activities that should be illegal without causing damages though, which if the police act upon should be held accountable by jurors, criminal and civil. It will be nice to wake up one morning and find that our government has recieved a large enema and gotten rid of most of the horsecrap policies in place now.
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