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Old 09-08-2005, 05:55 AM   #71
JAMROCK
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

MSF is good for what it is:basic training. People should be open to whatever makes them better.I have had taken the MSF course and enrolled in track days and track courses. You can learn from any training whether it be on the track or the street skills that will make you a better rider. Once the training is in place,it's time to get experience.
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:19 AM   #72
Abe_Froman
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

Pressing the handlebars "in the direction you want to turn" would be the opposite of countersteering. If you would like a demonstration I'll be happy to oblige.



Many, if not most, non-alcohol, daylight motorcycle accidents result from one of two things----collision with a car or a single-vehicle accident in a turn. Roadracers teaching you on a racetrack teach you



1) How to corner and brake properly, faster, and closer to the capability of your bike and yourself, all the better with which to avoid an accident when the time comes



2) Just how dangerous riding on the street is after being on a controlled, safe racetrack. You are automatically more aware of all the dangers of street riding after having been spoiled by the track. I've never spoken to someone that didn't relay this natural increase in awareness.





If you want to know how to go around a turn on a motorcycle, the MSF isn't the place to learn.
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:20 AM   #73
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

Who is going to be more likely to pay attention and avoid accidents on the street, as well as respect the dangers of riding on the street: an experienced racer, or an MSF-trained rider on his Harley with no track experience? Or better yet, put them both in the identical emgergency situation. Who will avoid the accident?
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:26 AM   #74
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Default Re: Regulation / Speed Parts

So is everything legal if not specifically banned by the constitution?



Insofar as the federal government is not allowed to regulate it, that is correct. Or at least that was the intention. The Constitution, if you missed civics class, was intended to limit the federal government to powers that were "few and defined". It intended to leave to the states and the people rights and regulations that were "numerous and indefinite".
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:30 AM   #75
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

Interesting. I'm from Ontario, Canada where we do have graduated licencing, which seem sall well and good but you can still hop on any bike with just a written test as long as you can afford the insurance, just not on the highway or at night...... My experience with the MSF course was good. I can't speak for other states testing criteria, but as far as I know if you dumped during the test, you failed, end of story. I know in our class, they failed 2 riders. But this of course depends on the course and the instructors there will be better, there will be worse. Overall, no course can be perfect, after all its humans who are running it. That said, I entirely agree that it's a whole lot better then sending someone out with nothing. The reality it the people who are going to ride like morons are going to ride like morons, but there's a good chance you may succeed in toning down the riding of the undecided morons and teaching them a little about who to stay alive just a little longer. That's the best you can hope for.



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Old 09-08-2005, 06:33 AM   #76
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

Actually above 30 mph or so if you press forward on the right side of the handlebar the bike will lean and turn right and the same on the left. Do it everyday. This along with leaning is the fastest way to steer your bike. (counterstreering 101) So it looks like Bob was right
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:46 AM   #77
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

I'm hijacking my own post from yesterday and a different thread, since it's more relevant here:



I did the MSF course, have read Hough and Ienatch, and wear all the gear every ride (which is several times a week). I see folks on big Gixxers and Hogs hauling ass in the city with tank tops on, pissing off cagers and scaring old ladies. The responsible among us often have to bear the brunt of the racer boy wannabes in the form of road rage, inflated insurance, etc.



All of that said, what do you guys think of the British system? I have been reading the excellent UK mag Bike for about 2 years now, and I gather the Brits have a far more formal process for new riders, including displacement and horsepower restrictions.



I am in favor of public policy taking riding more seriously. I advocate far more involved training, perhaps with even a graduated licensure system in which you have to demonstrate enough skill to bump up to the next level of horspower. I see the benefits including greater safety for all users of the road, more respect on the road from cagers, and lowered insurance rates for bigger bikes due to the ability to document the necessary skill and responsibilty.



Of course, this model should definitely be applied to SUV drivers as well, because motorcycle related stupidity is a fraction of the life endangering SUV road rage and rollovers. Anyone who has driven one of these dinosaurs knows that they handle like a 70's truck, which most essentially are. Understeer to oversteer happens in a flash as the ladder frame twists, dumping soccer mom and microwave gourmet dinners all over the road...



The 'big government bad' camp that sucks the teet of our current "administration" may bleat in discontent at such proposed regs, but it's painfully obvious that we are not mature enough to self regulate this stuff.
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Old 09-08-2005, 06:55 AM   #78
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

I agree that improving your skills on a track makes you a more capable rider on the street,

and more people should do that. But your original comment was about countersteering. Sorry Abe, but if you want to turn right using countersteering you push on the right side handlebar. That turns the front tire slightly left and causes the bike to lean right. That's why it's called "counter" steering. If you don't believe that, look it up.

As far as "faster and closer to the capability of your bike", again, that's great on the track but the street isn't the place for maximizing your performance.
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Old 09-08-2005, 07:09 AM   #79
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It may come to pass, given the new interest in motorcycles, due to higher gas prices. That's why they're so prevalent in Europe, and that could be the case here before too long. Of course, Europeans seem more given to regulation to begin with, but it would certainly solve a lot of problems if we took a page from their book.
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:42 AM   #80
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Default Re: We don't need no stinking training!

"pushing the handlebar in the direction you want to turn" would imply, to me, to be turning the bars to the right to steer right. That is not countersteering and it is incorrect. Why we are even having this discussion is beyond me. I am well aware of the phenomenon of countersteering and if you want me to teach you I can.
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