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BMW4VWW · 06-10-2005, 03:08 PM

Whether his Federal Firearms License (an unconstitutional scrap of paper if there ever was one) allowed him to possess full auto weapons or sawed off shotguns or not is a moot point. To the best of my recollection Koresh never had either of those in his possession. The weapon the government made the biggest stink about was a 50 caliber rifle that was never used during the stand off, and was a totally legal gun, even by the Gov's illegal definitions. VWW

Lastwatch · 06-10-2005, 05:51 PM

Maybe you are the one that should do a little more research on firearms law. You're way off.

At that time a Federal Firearms License meant he could legally transfer standard manufacture guns to qualified buyers. It did not mean that he could posess or sell Class III weapons such as sawed off shotguns or machine guns. That requires a separate license for simple POSSESSION. To sell or transfer Class III weapons at that time, both the buyer and seller both had to have CLASS III licenses and the transfer had to be reported to the Federal government, added to the NFA registry and then they require ATF tax stamps be issued and retained for each weapon that changes hands. The transfer must also be approved by at least one local law enforcement agency. Koresh wasn't even close to doing this.

But don't just take my word for it, read all about CLASS III regulation here . You may also cross reference Mr. Birdwell's USC references here .

While Koresh may not have been in current possession of any unregistered CLASS III weapons, his previous documentable history and evidence collected during the course of the investigation allowed the judge to grant the search warrant based on PROBABLE CAUSE, which is within the tenants of the CONSTITUTION. Search warrants aren't issued based upon what you KNOW is there, they are exploratory in nature based upon what you believe could POTENTIALLY be there. PBS did an independent documentary that asked the questions Congress were afraid too, which can be viewed online here which is the probably the most demonstrative explanation of these aspects of the preliminary case.

Whether you agree with the laws that were enforced here or not isn't really in question, I'm certainly not going to argue their worth. Nor will I argue that the outcome of the government's actions at Waco was anything less than tragic. But the original investigation was righteous per both the letter and contextual intent of the USC.

Lastwatch · 06-10-2005, 06:04 PM

I'm not sure if the ATF or National Guard started the fire, but it's probably safe to just say feds. Both the "flash bang" grenades and the CS canisters themselves (where used) can cause sparks and fire during ignition, particularly when mixed with the dry desert winds of Waco and already voluminous amounts of crystalizing CS gas in the air.

As far as being lethal towards children, you're absolutely correct. Their respiration systems simply can't move enough oxygen in and out to safely survive CS exposure. However, in the amounts used that day, CS was probably close to or actually lethal to any unmasked person, child or adult.

As to question number two, the search and arrest warrants hadn't been completed the last time he was in town. Remember, there were two raids on the compound. The first resulted in the gunfight that followed the initial attempts to serve the warrants, which drove back the smallish contingency of ATF agents. Then the standoff ensued. Then the combined Federal force became tired of loosing face in front of their peers and in the press and just went in anyway.

Fenton · 06-10-2005, 06:50 PM

I knew I'd learn something if I paid attention.

Now, was it Koresh that would ride the Harley into town?

Loki22302 · 06-10-2005, 07:43 PM

Hey,

What's with the hostility towards Federal law enforcement agents? Where you turned down for a LEO job in the past, or were you up to no good and an Agent bust your ass?

sarnali · 06-11-2005, 04:35 AM

They've been up here in Washington from the mid 80's. A bunch of members got charged under RICO laws back then, but they've had a pretty strong presence all along.

They're indeed the real deal, best to be avoided.

06-10-2005, 03:08 PM	#31
BMW4VWW Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,833	Re: ATF, Police Crack Down On Motorcycle Group Whether his Federal Firearms License (an unconstitutional scrap of paper if there ever was one) allowed him to possess full auto weapons or sawed off shotguns or not is a moot point. To the best of my recollection Koresh never had either of those in his possession. The weapon the government made the biggest stink about was a 50 caliber rifle that was never used during the stand off, and was a totally legal gun, even by the Gov's illegal definitions. VWW

06-10-2005, 05:51 PM	#32
Lastwatch Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 39	Re: ATF, Police Crack Down On Motorcycle Group Maybe you are the one that should do a little more research on firearms law. You're way off. At that time a Federal Firearms License meant he could legally transfer standard manufacture guns to qualified buyers. It did not mean that he could posess or sell Class III weapons such as sawed off shotguns or machine guns. That requires a separate license for simple POSSESSION. To sell or transfer Class III weapons at that time, both the buyer and seller both had to have CLASS III licenses and the transfer had to be reported to the Federal government, added to the NFA registry and then they require ATF tax stamps be issued and retained for each weapon that changes hands. The transfer must also be approved by at least one local law enforcement agency. Koresh wasn't even close to doing this. But don't just take my word for it, read all about CLASS III regulation here . You may also cross reference Mr. Birdwell's USC references here . While Koresh may not have been in current possession of any unregistered CLASS III weapons, his previous documentable history and evidence collected during the course of the investigation allowed the judge to grant the search warrant based on PROBABLE CAUSE, which is within the tenants of the CONSTITUTION. Search warrants aren't issued based upon what you KNOW is there, they are exploratory in nature based upon what you believe could POTENTIALLY be there. PBS did an independent documentary that asked the questions Congress were afraid too, which can be viewed online here which is the probably the most demonstrative explanation of these aspects of the preliminary case. Whether you agree with the laws that were enforced here or not isn't really in question, I'm certainly not going to argue their worth. Nor will I argue that the outcome of the government's actions at Waco was anything less than tragic. But the original investigation was righteous per both the letter and contextual intent of the USC.

06-10-2005, 06:04 PM	#33
Lastwatch Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 39	Re: ATF, Police Crack Down On Motorcycle Group I'm not sure if the ATF or National Guard started the fire, but it's probably safe to just say feds. Both the "flash bang" grenades and the CS canisters themselves (where used) can cause sparks and fire during ignition, particularly when mixed with the dry desert winds of Waco and already voluminous amounts of crystalizing CS gas in the air. As far as being lethal towards children, you're absolutely correct. Their respiration systems simply can't move enough oxygen in and out to safely survive CS exposure. However, in the amounts used that day, CS was probably close to or actually lethal to any unmasked person, child or adult. As to question number two, the search and arrest warrants hadn't been completed the last time he was in town. Remember, there were two raids on the compound. The first resulted in the gunfight that followed the initial attempts to serve the warrants, which drove back the smallish contingency of ATF agents. Then the standoff ensued. Then the combined Federal force became tired of loosing face in front of their peers and in the press and just went in anyway.

06-10-2005, 06:50 PM	#34
Fenton Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Arvada, CO Posts: 1,898	Re: ATF, Police Crack Down On Motorcycle Group I knew I'd learn something if I paid attention. Now, was it Koresh that would ride the Harley into town?

06-10-2005, 07:43 PM	#35
Loki22302 Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 39	Re: ATF, Police Crack Down On Motorcycle Group Hey, What's with the hostility towards Federal law enforcement agents? Where you turned down for a LEO job in the past, or were you up to no good and an Agent bust your ass?

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06-11-2005, 04:35 AM	#36
sarnali Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,416	Re: Neato to Bandito They've been up here in Washington from the mid 80's. A bunch of members got charged under RICO laws back then, but they've had a pretty strong presence all along. They're indeed the real deal, best to be avoided.