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jeffie 12-24-2003 09:06 AM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed

naco_traficante 12-24-2003 10:05 AM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
Won't matter much as long as the state doesn't do follow-up testing after the sale. Might generate a lot of business for aftermarket exhausts manufacturers.

F451 12-24-2003 10:46 AM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
I will be glad when the entire U.S. shares the same pollution standards for motorcycles so we do not have to put up with the gouging of CA dealers and Californians' can buy motorcycles from out-of-state if we like.

I would like to be able to do the same with Porsche so I can tell some CA dealers to stick it up their a$$ (the "$$" is literal).

gatling 12-24-2003 10:48 AM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
What can dealers legally do to modify motorcycles? Are they obligated not to do anything that might increase emissions? Back in the early 90s, HD dealers routinely sold a new cam during the 500 mile service, along with rejetting the carb and fitting a lower-restriction (louder) exhaust system. Is that legal?

Joe Berk

giuliom 12-24-2003 11:09 AM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
This will not be a huge difference for a couple of reasons. 1. Manufacturers already have to comply with California standards, and since California is such a huge market, they are well geared towards meeting those standards. 2. All manufacturers who want to sell in Europe must comply with the Euro 2 (I think that's its name) standard, which might be even more stringent than the California standards. 3. There is no follow up program, as there is for cars. If I modify a car radically, at smog text time (in CA) I get in trouble. For motorcycles, as someone already noticed, the only difference might be to increase the aftermarket sales.

As for the legality: you might notice that, for example, all stock mufflers have a little notice that it is illegal to use them in a bike that is not the one they are licensed for, and that it is illegal to modify the exhaust system, blah blah blah. It's like the "novelty" helmets, the brighter lightbulbs, the "competition" mufflers, etc.: manufacturers simply put a notice that, of course (wink, wink) these are not legal for street use, and that, of course!, they are not sold for anything like that....

Cheapskate 12-24-2003 01:24 PM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
The EPA also said that motorcycles produce more harmful exhaust per mile than cars or large SUV's. The average SUV burns four times as much gas per mile than my motorcycle, it also burns four times as much oxygen and nitrogen. How can a motorcycle produce more harmful exhaust per mile?

ironmike 12-24-2003 04:00 PM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
This is political... the realm of hyperbole and distortion. Do not attempt to apply logic to this genre - your frustration level will be inversely proportionate to your success.

Dave305 12-24-2003 05:05 PM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
Doesn't matter how much hydrocarbon is burned, if combustion is complete the only byproducts are water and carbon dioxide.

LocutusDeBorg 12-24-2003 07:43 PM

Uh, hold on.....

OK for the sake of the rest of this thread let me lay down what I know about emmission controls so we are somewhat on the same page.

Traditionally emmissions fall into 2 major categories: Hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen.

But since the mid '80s weve seen plenty, and I do mean plenty, of evidence that CO2 could do us a lot of hurt too, in the long run.


Bikes dont have controls that assure complete combustion of fuel. Optimal combustion mixture for maximum power is slightly rich, meaning that the excess fuel is pumped into the atmosphere as partially combusted molecular hydrocarbon fragments. These things react with gasses in the atmosphere and the sun's rays to form smog

Hydrocarbons are controlled by careful mixture manipulation and by catalytic converters, which complete combustion on the surface of a honeycomb coated with special materials in the exhast pipe.

Oxides of Nitrogen

involving of nitrogen in the cumbustion process is unavoidable, it composes 70% of the atmosphere. N2 is the most comon form of atmospheric nitrogen and it's really stable, meaning it's really hard to oxidize. High combustion pressures and temperatures are enough to split N2 though, creating oxides of nitrogen NO2 and NO collectively known as NOx. NO2 is the real baddie. it reacts with the atmosphere to produce ozone (O3) which is a very reactive chemical that loves to oxidise just about anything, including say, lung tissue.

Lets not confuse this stuff with the O3 that is famously disappearing in the high atmosphere and is useful for shielding us all from UV rays which causes cancer and would sterilize the planet of all multicellular life if all the high atmosphere O3 goes away. No, the stuff we creater down here never makes it up there. It's highly reactive remember? the High altitude O3 has very little chance to react because the atmosphere is so thin.

Oxides also react to form nitric acid, which is a major contributor of acid rain, as well as toxic organic nitrates.

NOx can be limited by lowering combustion temperature, usually by admitting some spent exhaust gasses into the intake(EGR), not a great formula for maintaining max power. But EGR is usually only implemented during cruise modes so it is not noticed very much. It pisses me off when "Hot Rodders" disable their EGR thinking they are gaining a bunch of power. They don't but they do increase the chances that my kid will get asthma.

Now, a bike with no emmission controls, tuned for maximum power definately has the potential to release more of these pollutants than a car or truch with state of the art, or even last generation emmission controls.

Now, what Cheapskate could conclude using his line logic is that motorcycles are not going to release more CO2 which is directly related to how much fuel and air is used.

CO2 reduction is a *****, but the result is better fuel economy.

seruzawa 12-24-2003 08:37 PM

Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed
True, but don't forget that in some localities they set up noise meters. And the fine for an altered exhaust can be quite stiff.

Merry Xmas.

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