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Old 12-26-2003, 01:40 PM   #31
F451
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Default Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed

Porsche is hurting right now with sales, no matter what they may be spin doctoring. Now is a good time to negotiate and buy. Just short of several months a friend of mine went to a prominent Porsche dealer and they gave him the rubbish about how they do not negotiate, blah, blah, blah and since he is financially keenly astute, he simply went to the Aston Martin dealer and negotiated a deal. You should have seen the look on the Porsche dealer's face when we drove up and showed him the AM. The best sh$ts and giggles I've had in long time. BTW the car he wanted is still on the lot.



A friend of mine used to work as a Sales Manger for a major Porsche dealership and they do negotiate, but in California they also do some unsavory tactics on both their new and used car sales, because of the CA emissions car requirements. Again, most of theses would be a non-issue if all cars met CA emissions laws. And yes there are good dealerships as well as bad.
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:03 PM   #32
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A good explanation, except for the supposed evidence on CO2 causing adverse effects on the world climate. There was a period of global warming in the middle ages that surpassed anything that the so called scientists can blame on greenhouse gases today. For an objective look at global warming look here http://users.erols.com/dhoyt1/ . VWW
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: Hybrid bike

I doubt very much that lead-acid batteries would be used on a bike. Mass concerns and safety would probably push towards NiMH construction, or, if cost is no issue, lithium ion. Lead-acid makes a great starter battery, which is why is continues to be used on motorcycles, but a NiMH dry cell in enough quantity (as needed for a hybrid) would start just fine. Also, being dry cells and containing much less toxic metals (though pricier), chemical safety wouldn't be a concern. Of course, just as in a car, this mass would have to be secured in a way that it wouldn't kill you in a collision.



That said, I still think it wouldn't buy much on a bike. (But I'm not an ME: hydraulic regenerative braking wouldn't add the 20 lbs. unsprung that I assumed.) The question, I think, is where is the break-even point? In a hybrid, all power is ultimately derived from gasoline. The hybrid is in the drive, not in the power generation. The efficiency is gained, I believe, from two main sources. First, what is wasted energy on a conventional vehicle (braking) is recaptured. Second, the gas engine is insulated from the varying loads, and can be run more frequently at its most efficient. There are other small gains, too, such as the elimination of idle. The down-side is the addition of a relatively inefficient energy storage medium (batteries). So, where does the weight of the batteries offset the gains made by their addition? A conventional 100 MPG bike isn't that hard to build, though we wouldn't like the performance. Can a hybrid bike beat that by enough to make sense? (Although I suspect the answer, at least right now, is no, that's an honest question, not retorical.)
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:53 PM   #34
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You are correct in so much as NiMH batteries would be a better solution for a hybrid motorcycle, but for the fact that currently NiMH technology is in it's nascent stages. To the best of my knowledge Texaco Ovonics are the most advanced battery of this type, and they are unavailable in an energy capacity above 10 amp hours. These batteries are also sensitive to external temperature variations.



As for lithium- ion batteries: isn't lithium just another toxic heavy metal when it comes time for disposal? VWW
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Old 12-26-2003, 04:25 PM   #35
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I would add that since the time the above data was published it has been determined that other globes in our local neighborhood are warming also. IE Mars. Do you suppose it is our automotive based emissions that are causing that also? I think the globe is warming, and I think the sun is doing it. I think that we are not so significant as we think we are. this is not to say that we don't have a responsibility to our environment, but rather that we should use a little common sense even though it would seem to be relatively un-common.
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Old 12-26-2003, 06:06 PM   #36
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I'm pretty sure that it G.W. and Al Gore put their heads together that they could come up with a massive tax payer funded program to combat Martian global warming. VWW
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Old 12-26-2003, 06:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed

Your argument seems to be with CA vehicle regulations, and yet you place the blame on CA motorcycle dealers. You also focus on "suggested" in MSRP and grant yourself the privilege of price negotiation, but accuse us dealers of gouging for asserting the same privilege. Assuming you work for a living, how often do you get asked to discount your goods or services? If so, how do you feel about it? Quite probably every dealer who've met you and even the ones who know you personally are a bit tired of your hypocrisy.
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Old 12-26-2003, 07:31 PM   #38
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Default Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed

I have never once objected to a dealer charging a premium over list. This is a free market economy, and if you believe in the concept, then you have to support this. There are situations where a motorcycle (or car etc.) is in short supply relative to demand. If the dealer can charge $5000 over list and move the product, then he should. It means the market has "decided" that the product is worth a premium over list. If he sells at MSRP in this situation, then he just very quickly ends up with an empty floor and nothing in the pipeline. I personally would like to see this happen more often, because new motorcycle margins end up being paper thin, and dealers seldom get a break. It seems like motorcycles are being discounted a month after their introductions, although the economy of the last couple of years is surely contributing to this as well.



As a consumer, I have the right to decide if itÂ’s worth it to me personally to spend the price the dealer is asking, or wait for a lower price. Hear me on this; A business that sets a price in plain sight is not ripping anyone off. Ever. Buying is a voluntary action. If you donÂ’t like the price, donÂ’t buy it. You donÂ’t have a guaranteed right to get something at a price you like. The idea of the MSRP being "suggested" works both ways. The market can "decide" that the item is worth more or less.



On the other hand, I have heard the argument that I should pay more for something because the dealer has a good service department. Bull! Do you service it for free? Of course not; I have to pay you for that. So, youÂ’ll have to come up with a better reason for me to pay you more for a motorcycle than the fact that youÂ’re a nice person, or have a *****inÂ’ service department. If you work on it, you can probably devise a value proposition that will differentiate you from your cut-rate competitors. When I can go to another motorcycle dealer and get a bike at a large discount, this is also the market "deciding", and as unpleasant as it is, you have to learn to do business in this market. You are not unique because you are a motorcycle dealer. Ask any software engineer in todayÂ’s market whether or not he is experiencing price pressure. All of us are, in fact, being "asked to discount", and as a result, we have to make sure we stretch our dollars as far as possible.

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Old 12-26-2003, 07:33 PM   #39
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Temperature is a problem, certainly. As for capacity, that's a packaging problem. I'm guessing that 10 AHs is the max 'cause that is the largest need at the moment. Power density is more important here.



A ChemE, I'm closer to, so I know a couple things about lithium. First, it's not a heavy metal. Rather, it's density is very low, nor is it chemically similiar to lead and other heavy metals. Instead, it's more similiar to sodium. Very soft, white metal that isn't all that toxic. Psycoactive, yes, but not that toxic. It's big problem is that it burns violently on contact with moisture. So, in an accident, you'd have fuel (spilled gas) and spark (burning lithium). Not a good combo. I'd start riding with my Nomex-lined ($$$) auto helmet. But, long story short, neither lithium nor nickel are big disposal problems.



This is why fuel cells are so exciting. No toxics, and the fire hazard would be well controlled by the impervious H2 cylinder. (With the pressures that the H2 would have to be provided at, ordinary collision impacts are a minor additional load. The only part that's a problem is the levers: anything sticking out, like valves. I have a feeling that the H2 canisters would be designed with the valves inside the cylinder.) One question I have: where are we going to find enough catalyst for a world full of fuel-cell vehicles? Last I checked, the catalysts were platinum, rhodium, and paladium. Not exactly corner store items.
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Old 12-26-2003, 08:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Motorcycle Pollution Standards Changed

Mr. Bigglesworth,



All of life is negotiation--except its parting. I have negotiated from a few cents to multi-millions on deals. As far as what you deem discounts, as long as the deal is fair to both parties I represent and both are happy, then it is a good deal or discount that goes directly for my services, fees, cut or whatever the deal entails. The U.S. system is based upon free market. However, CA emission regulations (and I am for them) are abused by those in the system. I have the right to purchase a vehicle anywhere in the U.S. as long as it meets the CA emissions criteria. When all vehicles universally meet emission standards and I am no longer handicapped by defunct CA emissions requirements, I then have much more negotiation power and henceforth will use it to the full extent.



I also prefer independent mechanics to do my service as they have much more at stake and also receive more in return for their troubles. I also find them less a revolving door as some of the motorcycle dealership mechanics I've met one month and disappeared the next, so your service argument hold no validity for me. Warranties are a legal and binding documents and those who understand them clearly, both the grey and the black and white will always do better than those who don't, so I also under warranty terms and conditions and if your establishment chooses not to warranty my vehicle I also have legal options that I intend to exercise, will and have. You don't want to service my ride? Then don't, someone else will.



Cosco...well, I do not shop at Cosco. I don't need a gallon of ketchup sitting in my refrigerator. If others shop there, then there must be a reason and I don't hold that against them.



Work for a living? Since I was twelve, don't intend to stop now or in the future.
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