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Old 12-05-2003, 08:25 AM   #31
ValkBandit
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Default Re: ATF Bags 55 Hell's Angels

maybe not such a waste if one of the guns had been used to cap YOUR sorry ass.



i'm no fan of law enforcement (having been cited myself from time to time) but if forced to choose i will opt for cops over bad guys. i'm surprised so many of you feel differently. let's get real, shall we?
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Old 12-05-2003, 09:07 AM   #32
jkgooch
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Default Re: let's try a different tack..so maybe

I doubt anybody is following this thread anymore, but for the sake of setting the record straight, here's the deal on gun manufacturer liability:



There is good evidence that most guns used in crimes and sold on the black market come from a small subset of dealers. That subset, for whatever reason, handles most of the people-killing-people's firearms. Maybe they don't sell the guns directly to a felon, but for whatever reason, more of the guns from their shop wind up involved in crime.



Gun manufacturers know this. In fact, they've known about it for years. As suppliers to these gun shop owners and dealers, they have known, for years, that certain of these folks sell guns that wind up being used to kill people or commit crimes. They supply a potentially deadly product to these guys *knowing* the high likelihood is that the product will eventually kill someone illegally.



When you do something with the knowledge that death of another is the highly probable result, that is criminal recklessness. In fact, that is the exact definition of criminal recklessness in practically every state.



No one, that I know of, who is serious about gun manufacturer liability is suggesting that they should be prosecuted simply because guns can be used to kill or commit crimes. Gun manufacturers should be prosecuted because they know, in advance, which guns they sell are likely to be used commit crimes but they have refused to change the way they supply guns to dealers.



If Monsanto Chemical Corp. knew that the sludge it was dumping was likely leeching into your drinking water, and then one day your son died because of the chemicals in your drinking water, you'd want to sue Monsanto. And you'd be right.



Few people want to take guns out of the hands of enthusiasts and hunters. They want them out of the hands of people who are likely to use them to kill or commit crimes. Gun manufacturers, alone on the supply chain, have both the knowledge and the ability to control the flow of firearms to people who are likely to sell them to criminals or in some way put the guns into the criminal pool. They've had that knowledge for years.



That's why they should be held liable--anytime a gun that comes from a known "hot shop" is involved in a crime, the manufacturer who knowingly supplied that shop should be made to shoulder part of the burden.



So there.
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Old 12-05-2003, 10:25 AM   #33
brook_63
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Default Re: 1 LAST TIME read jkgooch post 1st

he obviously gets IT!

i am not for gun control; duh...........

it is just the manufacturers know who ends up with them that makes my case,

yes 99% of gun owners who REALLY know how to use them are not the problem, the 12 year old kid car-jacking you; who has one is the scapegoat, who knows what he/she is doing, but probably does not understand the implication of their impending action...IS
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Old 12-05-2003, 10:41 AM   #34
sarnali
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Default Re: ATF Bags 55 Hell's Angels

I'm guessing the object of the raids was methamphetamine, not guns. Up here meth is a real problem, in fact east Pierce county, where I live is pretty much ground-zero for that crap.

As far as I'm concerned anyone involved with that ***** should "resist arrest" for the swat team. As far as fifty guns for fifty-five people, hell my neighborhood could do better than that.
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Old 12-05-2003, 11:06 AM   #35
ValknMag
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Default Re: let's try a different tack..so maybe

"There is good evidence that most guns used in crimes and sold on the black market come from a small subset of dealers. That subset, for whatever reason, handles most of the people-killing-people's firearms. Maybe they don't sell the guns directly to a felon, but for whatever reason, more of the guns from their shop wind up involved in crime.



Gun manufacturers know this."



Where, please?
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Old 12-05-2003, 11:42 AM   #36
nokneedragin
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Default Re: ATF Bags 55 Hell's Angels

Good Point. I remember a bumper sticker from the sixties that read

"don't like cops? next time you need help, call a hippie"

Or something to that effect.
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Old 12-05-2003, 12:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: 1 LAST TIME read jkgooch post 1st

Gotcha.



I don't know how one is going to place so much blame on the manufacturers. Any device can be used for good or evil. In a free society there's really no way to guarantee that guns won't get in the wrong hands. It can't be guaranteed in totalitarian societies either. And totalitarian societies breed even greater proportions of criminals than free societies.



Most of the guns that are being gotten cheaply and illegally by street criminals are made in Eastern Europe anyhow. Usually they carry these cheap .25 autos. Outside of Hollywood you seldom see street punks carrying Berettas or Glocks.



There simply isn't any way for the manufacturers to guarantee end use. I believe that Bill Ruger would have stopped his guns from geting in criminal hands if he could have. The same for Remington and the rest.



It is interesting to note that even Bill Clinton never acted to stop the flow of these weapons from foreign sources with any real enthusiasm.



Anyhow, even countries with strict gun control are having problems like ours increasingly. Those statistics that the English are so proud of rubbing in our faces are decades old. Tain't true no more.



Criminals will always find ways to get weapons. They always have throughout human history. Even during the years of the old Soviet Empire the Moscow Militia (their term for police) were complaining that they were being outgunned by criminals. The Militia was limited to some pretty weak pistols (the central govt was as paranoid about the police staging a new revolution as they were about the general citizens) while the criminals were carrying stolen military arms.
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Old 12-05-2003, 12:26 PM   #38
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Default Re: let's try a different tack..so maybe

The problem is that fair trade laws preclude manufacturers from refusing to sell to legally licensed wholesalers.
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Old 12-05-2003, 12:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: ATF Bags 55 Hell's Angels

Since psychiatrists are the major pushers of amphetamine (over 5 million children on Ritalin nationwide) we should take out the baby-drugging meth-pushing shrinks too.

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Old 12-05-2003, 12:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: let's try a different tack..so maybe

That is a bit exaggerated. First of all, anyone with an FFL can by and sell firearms from larger distributors.



Now if I, as a licensed dealer am selling my weapons illegally to the public, it is not the gun manufacturers responsibility but that of the government, who gave me the license, to make sure I am following the law.



And your Chemical Corp story does not relate to a manufacturer legally selling their product to a federally licensed distributor and that distributor brakes the law.



It would be like a chem. company selling there product to Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart dumps it into the drinking water. Wal-Mart broke the law and you expect the chem. company to be prosecuted?



"Few people want to take guns out of the hands of enthusiasts and hunters."

--Riiiiight. As long as you mean I'm aloud to own the guns you feel are ok to own.



And any time the "Hot Shops" sell a gun...which I'm assuming are called that since there would be credible evidence to show they have a history of braking laws...wouldn't that show the ATF seem to be falling down on the job?



"so there"

--"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain





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