Motorcycle.com

zelatore · 09-27-2003, 12:47 PM

This is exactly what I was saying in my earlier post. Find a dealer, find a salesman, and stick with him to develop a relationship and you'll be much happier in the end. If you don't like him, tell him why (instead of just going away) so that hopefully he can improve. Any of my sales staff would welcome constructive criticism, and would likely then be able to direct you to a salesman who would be a better fit for you. I.E. Bob specializes in dirt bikes but may not know much about street bikes. Maybe Joe is very technical, while Rick is more into the 'lifestyle'. There's a match for everybody.

Agent0090 · 09-27-2003, 03:33 PM

Ahem. As a lawyer, I feel the need to respond. You all are right. The tort system (specifically) and the civil law system (generally) suck. Civil lawyers often take their clients for a ride on the legal fees. The endless depositions, interogatories, motions for summary judgement, and other pre-trial "litigation" are quite often, in my opinion, designed to bilk big clients out of legal fees and/or intimidate small-time clients out of taking anything to trial. The civil system is as much about being able to pay the legal fees required to run the gauntlet of pre-trial litigation as it is about the merits of anyone's claim.

An example from a friend of mine who works in a creditor's rights (suing people who owe companies money) firm: Guy goes out and leases a new truck from the dealer using the manufacturer's financing arm. Six months later he goes back to the dealer and converts the lease to a purchase, again financing it through the manufacturer. A month after that he sees a new dually truck that he really wants, so he talks to the dealer (the same dealer) about trading his in for the dually. Dealer calls the financing people to see how much he still owes on the "old" truck, and they say "nothing." So the dealer finances the new truck (again, though the manufacturer's financing arm) and the dealer takes the "old" truck as a (hefty) trade-in. In short order the dealer finds out that the financing people screwed up and were looking at the lease account (which was paid off) on the old truck rather than the purchase account (that still had a rahter large balance) when they said that the buyer owed nothing. Buyer refuses to pay. (And in fact had driven the new dually directly to his lawyer's office to consult about something, I know not what.) Manufacturer hires my friend's law firm to sue the buyer.

Here's where it gets REALLY stupid. This case has dragged on for YEARS. The manufacturer has paid far more in legal bills than the guy ever owed on the old truck. The guy who owned the truck has paid off the dually, and probably enough to his lawyer to have paid the manufacturer what he owed them. My friend's law firm has billed so much to the manufacturer that they now feel guilty about it (really!) and are working for free. EVERYBODY GOT SCREWED.

The moral of the story is:

1. If your lawyer is doing this to you, fire them. Consider filing a bar complaint. They deserve it. Demand better.

2. If you're a lawyer and you're doing this to your client(s), it is probably unethical. (See the bar complaint recommendation above.) You're suppose to be working for your cleints' best interests, and turning a $30,000 loss on a truck into a $60,000 legal bill isn't in their best interests. You deserve to be fired. And maybe disbarred, especially if you're the a$$hole of a partner who is making your junior associates churn those billable hours.

3. If you're a judge, keep this kind of crap under control. Don't allow endless discovery. When you set trial dates, mean it. If the lawyers are kicking and screaming about continuances as trial approaches, make 'em go anyway. It'll be fun! Consider alternative dispute resolution. (The case above DOES NOT NEED TO GO TO TRIAL!!! Juries are finders of fact, not law. This case needs little or no facts found; everyone knows what happened. They just need an impartial ruling that an arbitrator can provide much more easily and cheaply.)

In case you're wondering, I'm a public defender. I only do criminal trials, and I get paid a salary no matter what I do. This allows me the freedom to spend a lot of time working up cases that need it, and dispatching simple ones quickly. I don't feed my clients a line of BS because I need to keep them happy so they'll keep paying their bills. They don't always like what I have to say (often it's bad news), but I feel that I am much more honest with them than most private attorneys are with their clients. With my caseload, I don't have the time to be anything else.

I believe in juries because they keep the legal system sane. (At least when the issues are not so technically complex that laypersons cannot understand them.) I have seen juries disregard fairly clear law because they didn't like the equities of the situation. That's not always bad. It infuses a dose of common sense into the legal system.

You all are right to complain.

P.S. If you're called for jury duty, do your best to serve. It sucks sometimes, but it's necessary.

P.P.S. Take a good hard look at what your insurace companies are raking in for profits. They're pretty good at screwing people, too.

Agent0090 · 09-27-2003, 03:39 PM

Let's put John Burns on the case. He seems to have the right attitude for the job and just enough legal training to be dangerous. >

rvfrules · 09-27-2003, 04:34 PM

I don't get it. The guy who hit her was charged with failure to yield and had no insurance. The woman rider was very experienced. Seems to me a good lawyer could have gotten this tossed out of court in short order.

sarnali · 09-27-2003, 05:34 PM

or a VFR

sarnali · 09-27-2003, 05:43 PM

You're more likly to get a demo at a Euro or 'murican dealer than an Japanese dealer, though the local Suzuki-Kawi dealer is more than happy to turn you loose.

I've got to demo HD, BMW and Triumph by basicaly showing up on my bike and asking . With the Japanese dealer's it's more a case of being middle aged and filthy rich, They seem happy to help me out

.Back when I was a poor young biker freak it was hard to get the time of day from them. I guess I've made it into the target demographic.

kawazuki · 09-29-2003, 03:01 PM

The only BMW dealer in the area (Albuquerque) is essentially the only dealer in the area which doesn't allow test rides around here. The Yamaha / Ducati dealership has allowed me to ride several Yamahas and even one of the Ducatis they had in, likewise the Honda, Kawasaki, Triumph, and even Harley dealers have given test rides.

So that makes the BMW guys lame.

-Kawazuki

rickd · 10-08-2003, 01:12 PM

You shouldn't lick lawyers. You don't know where they have been.

rickrwh · 10-17-2003, 05:33 AM

I completely agree and I have a solution. Let's have a national "kill a lawyer" day. For one day there would be a national amnesty for anyone that kills a lawyer. Also, if anyone on this board is a lawyer, please kill yourself. Just a thought.

rickrwh · 10-17-2003, 05:37 AM

Also, in Germany they have this great law that says you are 18 years old, you are an adult and responsible for your own actions. You spilled hot coffee and burned yourself? You are a f**king moron, deal with it.

09-27-2003, 12:47 PM	#51
zelatore Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 33	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? This is exactly what I was saying in my earlier post. Find a dealer, find a salesman, and stick with him to develop a relationship and you'll be much happier in the end. If you don't like him, tell him why (instead of just going away) so that hopefully he can improve. Any of my sales staff would welcome constructive criticism, and would likely then be able to direct you to a salesman who would be a better fit for you. I.E. Bob specializes in dirt bikes but may not know much about street bikes. Maybe Joe is very technical, while Rick is more into the 'lifestyle'. There's a match for everybody.

09-27-2003, 03:33 PM	#52
Agent0090 Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 80	A lawyer responds Ahem. As a lawyer, I feel the need to respond. You all are right. The tort system (specifically) and the civil law system (generally) suck. Civil lawyers often take their clients for a ride on the legal fees. The endless depositions, interogatories, motions for summary judgement, and other pre-trial "litigation" are quite often, in my opinion, designed to bilk big clients out of legal fees and/or intimidate small-time clients out of taking anything to trial. The civil system is as much about being able to pay the legal fees required to run the gauntlet of pre-trial litigation as it is about the merits of anyone's claim. An example from a friend of mine who works in a creditor's rights (suing people who owe companies money) firm: Guy goes out and leases a new truck from the dealer using the manufacturer's financing arm. Six months later he goes back to the dealer and converts the lease to a purchase, again financing it through the manufacturer. A month after that he sees a new dually truck that he really wants, so he talks to the dealer (the same dealer) about trading his in for the dually. Dealer calls the financing people to see how much he still owes on the "old" truck, and they say "nothing." So the dealer finances the new truck (again, though the manufacturer's financing arm) and the dealer takes the "old" truck as a (hefty) trade-in. In short order the dealer finds out that the financing people screwed up and were looking at the lease account (which was paid off) on the old truck rather than the purchase account (that still had a rahter large balance) when they said that the buyer owed nothing. Buyer refuses to pay. (And in fact had driven the new dually directly to his lawyer's office to consult about something, I know not what.) Manufacturer hires my friend's law firm to sue the buyer. Here's where it gets REALLY stupid. This case has dragged on for YEARS. The manufacturer has paid far more in legal bills than the guy ever owed on the old truck. The guy who owned the truck has paid off the dually, and probably enough to his lawyer to have paid the manufacturer what he owed them. My friend's law firm has billed so much to the manufacturer that they now feel guilty about it (really!) and are working for free. EVERYBODY GOT SCREWED. The moral of the story is: 1. If your lawyer is doing this to you, fire them. Consider filing a bar complaint. They deserve it. Demand better. 2. If you're a lawyer and you're doing this to your client(s), it is probably unethical. (See the bar complaint recommendation above.) You're suppose to be working for your cleints' best interests, and turning a $30,000 loss on a truck into a $60,000 legal bill isn't in their best interests. You deserve to be fired. And maybe disbarred, especially if you're the a$$hole of a partner who is making your junior associates churn those billable hours. 3. If you're a judge, keep this kind of crap under control. Don't allow endless discovery. When you set trial dates, mean it. If the lawyers are kicking and screaming about continuances as trial approaches, make 'em go anyway. It'll be fun! Consider alternative dispute resolution. (The case above DOES NOT NEED TO GO TO TRIAL!!! Juries are finders of fact, not law. This case needs little or no facts found; everyone knows what happened. They just need an impartial ruling that an arbitrator can provide much more easily and cheaply.) In case you're wondering, I'm a public defender. I only do criminal trials, and I get paid a salary no matter what I do. This allows me the freedom to spend a lot of time working up cases that need it, and dispatching simple ones quickly. I don't feed my clients a line of BS because I need to keep them happy so they'll keep paying their bills. They don't always like what I have to say (often it's bad news), but I feel that I am much more honest with them than most private attorneys are with their clients. With my caseload, I don't have the time to be anything else. I believe in juries because they keep the legal system sane. (At least when the issues are not so technically complex that laypersons cannot understand them.) I have seen juries disregard fairly clear law because they didn't like the equities of the situation. That's not always bad. It infuses a dose of common sense into the legal system. You all are right to complain. P.S. If you're called for jury duty, do your best to serve. It sucks sometimes, but it's necessary. P.P.S. Take a good hard look at what your insurace companies are raking in for profits. They're pretty good at screwing people, too.

09-27-2003, 03:39 PM	#53
Agent0090 Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 80	And one more thing . . . Let's put John Burns on the case. He seems to have the right attitude for the job and just enough legal training to be dangerous. >

09-27-2003, 04:34 PM	#54
rvfrules Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Tokyo Posts: 134	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? I don't get it. The guy who hit her was charged with failure to yield and had no insurance. The woman rider was very experienced. Seems to me a good lawyer could have gotten this tossed out of court in short order.

09-27-2003, 05:34 PM	#55
sarnali Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,416	Re: Quack Quack or a VFR

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09-27-2003, 05:43 PM	#56
sarnali Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,416	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? You're more likly to get a demo at a Euro or 'murican dealer than an Japanese dealer, though the local Suzuki-Kawi dealer is more than happy to turn you loose. I've got to demo HD, BMW and Triumph by basicaly showing up on my bike and asking . With the Japanese dealer's it's more a case of being middle aged and filthy rich, They seem happy to help me out .Back when I was a poor young biker freak it was hard to get the time of day from them. I guess I've made it into the target demographic.

09-29-2003, 03:01 PM	#57
kawazuki Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 196	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? The only BMW dealer in the area (Albuquerque) is essentially the only dealer in the area which doesn't allow test rides around here. The Yamaha / Ducati dealership has allowed me to ride several Yamahas and even one of the Ducatis they had in, likewise the Honda, Kawasaki, Triumph, and even Harley dealers have given test rides. So that makes the BMW guys lame. -Kawazuki

10-08-2003, 01:12 PM	#58
rickd Founding Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? You shouldn't lick lawyers. You don't know where they have been.

10-17-2003, 05:33 AM	#59
rickrwh Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 6	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? I completely agree and I have a solution. Let's have a national "kill a lawyer" day. For one day there would be a national amnesty for anyone that kills a lawyer. Also, if anyone on this board is a lawyer, please kill yourself. Just a thought.

10-17-2003, 05:37 AM	#60
rickrwh Founding Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 6	Re: Why don't US dealers have demo bikes, really? Also, in Germany they have this great law that says you are 18 years old, you are an adult and responsible for your own actions. You spilled hot coffee and burned yourself? You are a f**king moron, deal with it.