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Old 03-08-2009, 08:21 PM   #21
pdad13
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Originally Posted by GSXRWolf View Post
Digging a little deeper into the rules.

Check out this "Bulletin"

http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/A...ll-2009-03.pdf
Now they're also waiving the weight penalty for the 1125R? So it can run at the same weight as the 600s...I don't know about that. Did Bruce R. and H-D get Rog E. some prime strippers?
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:02 AM   #22
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1- TC works and makes for better lap times. It's undisputed at this point. Ducati made the science work. Suzuki and Yamaha made it work for the "everyday" man. ABS will soon follow on the track. It will happen.
2- All Twins are heavier than the 600s. All Triples are heavier. Those are the rules. The weight limit varies based on rwhp as limited by rules.


I just read a soup column about Mat's win. Let me point out that a year ago the Suzuki trio would have walked the field. Mat won on an '08 bike. Mat will will on the '09 bike. He just won't win as much. Yamaha and Ducati are nipping at the tail of mighty Suzuki. Two more races and you'll see the results. Those are my thought on American Superbike.
The 200 was, once again, a confusing affair that has become a joke to watch or follow. It's increasingly evident that DIS cannot run a bike race. The safety car thing has become a joke. The start was a joke. The Bostrom "waive by" was a joke. Just line them up 3 wide on the grid and start them. When the yellow flies the field is locked at the last full lap recorded by the leader of that lap. When the red flag flies send the car out to clear the field. It's that easy.
On the positive side, the full course laps were great for 600 times. The bikes seem to be making good power. Congrats to Melissa Paris. First pro race and she scores a 21st place. She made up 17 positions and stayed out of trouble. Josh should be very proud of his wife. Sad for Danny Eslick. He had a Buell that could run up front and pieces start falling off. Hopefully, he'll be in good shape for Fontana.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:23 AM   #23
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2- All Twins are heavier than the 600s. All Triples are heavier. Those are the rules. The weight limit varies based on rwhp as limited by rules.
Ace, check the technical bulletin (titled "Special Allowances") that GSXRWolf linked to. If I'm reading it right, it says the 1125R can now run at 365 lbs., which is the same as the minimum weight of the 600s. The triples' minimum weight is 375. And the twins are supposed to be 385, except the Buell, apparently.

Here is the exact portion of the bulletin that refers to the Buell's special allowances:

"Buell 1125R Daytona SportBike, SuperSport Allowed Min. Weight 365lbs.

Items allowed to be changed outside the rules:

Chain Drive Conversion Kit: Buell Race Part G0625.08AZ
Front Wheel: Buell Race Part G0110.08AZ SuperSport
Front Wheel, magnesium Buell Race Part G0110.04AH DSB
Rear Wheel, magnesium 17x5.75 Buell Race Part G0309.05AH DSB
Fork, Showa LH, future production: Buell Race Part J0122.09AZ
Fork, Showa RH, future production: Buell Race Part J0121.09AZ
Air Box: Buell Race Part P2215.08B2
Connecting Rod Bolts: Buell Race Part CA0034.09AZ"
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:03 AM   #24
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Ace, check the technical bulletin (titled "Special Allowances") that GSXRWolf linked to. If I'm reading it right, it says the 1125R can now run at 365 lbs., which is the same as the minimum weight of the 600s. The triples' minimum weight is 375. And the twins are supposed to be 385, except the Buell, apparently.

Here is the exact portion of the bulletin that refers to the Buell's special allowances:

"Buell 1125R Daytona SportBike, SuperSport Allowed Min. Weight 365lbs.

Items allowed to be changed outside the rules:

Chain Drive Conversion Kit: Buell Race Part G0625.08AZ
Front Wheel: Buell Race Part G0110.08AZ SuperSport
Front Wheel, magnesium Buell Race Part G0110.04AH DSB
Rear Wheel, magnesium 17x5.75 Buell Race Part G0309.05AH DSB
Fork, Showa LH, future production: Buell Race Part J0122.09AZ
Fork, Showa RH, future production: Buell Race Part J0121.09AZ
Air Box: Buell Race Part P2215.08B2
Connecting Rod Bolts: Buell Race Part CA0034.09AZ"
Ok- but is it obtainable? I'd find it nearly impossible to remove that much weight from the 1125 without breaking the rules. Stock forks, cases, crank and factory plastic make for heavy bikes. I'd almost bet money on the fact that Eslick's bike was between 380-390 (with fluids)- probably more like 405lbs.
Also, it is playing under the the 1200 rule. At 1125 it gives up 74cc to the Ducati. Maybe that's the difference. Can't see why, but someone thinks that the Buel had a technical disadvantage. After the way Danny was running I don't see it, though.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:37 AM   #25
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Ok- but is it obtainable? I'd find it nearly impossible to remove that much weight from the 1125 without breaking the rules. Stock forks, cases, crank and factory plastic make for heavy bikes. I'd almost bet money on the fact that Eslick's bike was between 380-390 (with fluids)- probably more like 405lbs.
Also, it is playing under the the 1200 rule. At 1125 it gives up 74cc to the Ducati. Maybe that's the difference. Can't see why, but someone thinks that the Buel had a technical disadvantage. After the way Danny was running I don't see it, though.
Well, maybe, maybe not. But someone might think it's possible. At the very least, it seems likely that it can get signficantly under the Twins' minumum weight (385 lbs.).

Why do I think that? Look at the lists of parts listed in the special allowances. Magnesium race wheels and new forks ("future production") are included. They're clearly not current stock items. A little deductive reasoning tells me that maybe someone figured out that with the addition of these new parts (and whatever other tricks they have), the 1125 can go well below 385 lbs.

I mean, they DID change the minimum weight for the 1125R to 365 lbs. Why?

The 1200cc rule is not in play here; these are just rules for Daytona Superbike and Supersport. Buell isn't even running in American Superbike. The 1125R has a huge displacement advantage and now seems to have less of a weight disadvantage. The original proposed rules were supposed to be based on power-to-weight ratios. Are they even checking that now?

I don't get it. And I don't understand why Buell would really want this. So they may win some AMA races, but it's going to ring awfully hollow. It's just going to perpetuate the feeling that H-D and Buell are rigging the system and they can't really compete. Who's making the decisions over there?

Last edited by pdad13 : 03-09-2009 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Severe chafing
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:59 AM   #26
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Well, maybe, maybe not. But someone might think it's possible. At the very least, it seems likely that it can get signficantly under the Twins' minumum weight (385 lbs.).

Why do I think that? Look at the lists of parts listed in the special allowances. Magnesium race wheels and new forks ("future production") are included. They're clearly not current stock items. A little deductive reasoning tells me that maybe someone figured out that with the addition of these new parts (and whatever other tricks they have), the 1125 can go well below 385 lbs.

I mean, they DID change the minimum weight for the 1125R to 365 lbs. Why?

The 1200cc rule is not in play here; these are just rules for Daytona Superbike and Supersport. Buell isn't even running in American Superbike. The 1125R has a huge displacement advantage and now seems to have less of a weight disadvantage. The original proposed rules were supposed to be based on power-to-weight ratios. Are they even checking that now?

I don't get it. And I don't understand why Buell would really want this. So they may win some AMA races, but it's going to ring awfully hollow. It's just going to perpetuate the feeling that H-D and Buell are rigging the system and they can't really compete. Who's making the decisions over there?
Oh please. After all these years of the Big4 rigging things such accusations would be pretty hollow.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:12 PM   #27
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Oh please. After all these years of the Big4 rigging things such accusations would be pretty hollow.
Well, yes, you're right. But they'll be there nonetheless and they won't be viewed as hollow. It's not about reality. It's about perception. Buell can't just ignore it, they'll have to deal with it somehow.

We're already hearing about 1125 vs. 600 stuff. Knowing how the average Joe compares bikes, I doubt winning in this class is going to enhance the brand much.

I really, really, like Buell, but they seem to make some ill-advised decisions sometimes.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:15 PM   #28
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Well, maybe, maybe not. But someone might think it's possible. At the very least, it seems likely that it can get signficantly under the Twins' minumum weight (385 lbs.).

Why do I think that? Look at the lists of parts listed in the special allowances. Magnesium race wheels and new forks ("future production") are included. They're clearly not current stock items. A little deductive reasoning tells me that maybe someone figured out that with the addition of these new parts (and whatever other tricks they have), the 1125 can go well below 385 lbs.

I mean, they DID change the minimum weight for the 1125R to 365 lbs. Why?

The 1200cc rule is not in play here; these are just rules for Daytona Superbike and Supersport. Buell isn't even running in American Superbike. The 1125R has a huge displacement advantage and now seems to have less of a weight disadvantage. The original proposed rules were supposed to be based on power-to-weight ratios. Are they even checking that now?

I don't get it. And I don't understand why Buell would really want this. So they may win some AMA races, but it's going to ring awfully hollow. It's just going to perpetuate the feeling that H-D and Buell are rigging the system and they can't really compete. Who's making the decisions over there?
On the weight: I think it's possible but unlikely that you could achieve the weight.

On the Wheels- Ducs use mag wheels and as long as they are offered to the public in the after-market then they are legal.

On supension- It's the internals that get changed. Not the fork. Almost everyone making suspension parts markets something that will work for the grid- except Buell. Those needed to be designed then installed, tested and eventually marketed. I'll give them a bye on the suspension because they will become available.

One the weight reduction: I'm not convenced that the wheels were the contributing factor. Maybe the stock exhaust in insanely heavy compared to the pipe they use. You can save 20 lbs from that alone. But you got me as to why they gave the break. I do believe that the power to weight is still the same, though. Maybe they have to give up some tuning to get the weight right.

Either way, Barney and Danny will do Buell proud this season. The weight issue I believe is a non-issue. I think it was a bargining tool in the event that they put some of the race parts into production bikes in the future. When you look at the KTM RC8 vs the Buell they are very similar, but the horsepower would go to the KTM. However, this very bike would be in a state of de-tuning when looking at the power to weight. DMG said the point is to get the bikes on a similar playing field. Meaning that as long as the total weight (including rider) and power are within spec then you get ot race. Maybe, Barney is heavier than your average 600 rider. If so, then Barney can tune his bike with higher hp limits compared to his skinnier 600cc rivals. Just as long as the power to weight isn't out of spec then all is fair- I suppose.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:14 PM   #29
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I took that right from the article. Please read it. Are you questioning the esteemed author(s)?



So antilock brakes won't save a new rider if he jams on the brakes too hard? So a slipper clutch won't prevent rear wheel lock-up when the noob downshifts at too high a speed, preventing the bike from spitting him off? Hmmm.

I will not correct you again. I did NOT and NEVER WILL suggest that a 1000cc racer replica is for beginners. I will always acknowledge that new riders make poor judgement about the type of bike they should buy.

IF a new rider is destined/determined/hell-bent set on buying a 1000cc racer replica (as many do) would you rather he buy:

a) a new Yamahondazuki with A/B/C mode, antilock brakes, traction control, and slipper clutch OR...
b) an older racer replica 1000cc bike with NONE of the features listed above?
Listen, seems your dispute is with why the manufacture put these items on the bike? Imo they are more directed to the racer, not the newbie. So if you would like to argue some more, talk with Suzuki. Cause my opinion is they are made for for someone whos going to use them to their advantage, NOT to save them from theirself. An advancment in technology is usually not to save someone from the lack of experience but to propel their riding, not to limit it!

Slipper clutch, traction control, steering dampners where all designed to help a racer. If you disagree then I guess the designers had only new riders in mind when they invented the A,B,C mode, the slipper clutch, the steering dampner.

Now if we were talking about the saftey side stand switch, then maybe I would agree with you. That is a componet that saves the rider from his stupidity or inexperience. All the other componets are their to propel a racer and make lap times easier. Besides just because a racer lost a race due to not having traction control that's a different discussion all together. Sure they are not as quick as a computer no doubt anyone whos willing to argue that is a lost cause.As long as it doesnt break.

And if you didnt know, the way to make these components legal in racing, is usually to have the bike come stock with them. Thats the reason the Manufacture even put these items their in the first place, thats the real reason, didnt you know that?

And to answer your last question about a new rider being hell bent, I would suggest they buy a smaller bike. I would and will never give up on that scenario, I always talk them down, always!
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:24 PM   #30
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You don't know Larry do you Moke? He has ridden on an underfunded team with little to know outside help for a decade easily. In most cases he's a top 5 guy. Now, he has DNA Corse actually paying techs. He's got the skill. Now the bike. He could absolutely win Superbike races. I expect two to three wins and four boxes this season. Look at the top speed of the bike. Look at the splits he was doing. Once they get the electronics working the bike will be a rocket. Fontana and Atlanta will have him on the box- watch.
I absolutely believe he does have the skill and now with the backing hes so desperately needed for so long, he will beat Mladin to a few race finishes. But dont judge me because of my opinion of this one race? It was just my opinion? I am entitled to that here at MO arent I ?
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