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Old 12-13-2007, 12:53 AM   #311
Gluge
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Originally Posted by longride View Post
After the first statement you can quit right there. No, it doesn't look like an Indian. Indian went out of business in the 50's Maybe you need to quit buying motorcycles by a spec sheet and 'shootout winners' and worry more about the ride?
Looks a lot like an Indian to me. I know they're out of business though.

I do worry about the ride that's why I read reviews about how they handle, how the suspension is etc. etc.

If you'll look at the review the ride is obviously better on the yamaha star, not the harley, or did you forget that so quickly? The point of reviews is to compare what riding the motorcycles is like so you the buyer doesn't have to go out and try them all. (especially since most places won't let you take test rides)

Tell me would you buy the yamaha for the ride or the harley for the name? You've been arguing for the harley yet then you tell me to worry more about the ride? You realize winning a shoot out and having the best ride often go hand in hand?
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:59 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
Worthless arguements (as in two sides) would be correct. Now, let's cut to the meat of the matter, why do people buy these pigs and compare performance numbers? I rarely hear, "you know my nissan murano edged out the toyota 4runner in both zero to sixty and the quarter mile" Who cares? They both suck at both.
Really? I hear people compare that stuff all the time. Almost anyone in the market for a truck will compare it to other trucks on the basis of how well it accelerates, and what mpg it gets. Of course trucks suck at both but just because your in the market for a vehicle with some common weaknesses doesn't mean you can't pick the one relatively strongest in those areas.

In fact that's often how you get the most rounded vehicles. Take picking a sports car if you pick a sports car based on what sports cars are good at - speed, cornering etc. you'll get a very focused car. If you pick a sports car based on what they're not good at - luggage space, practicality etc. you'll get a much more all round car.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:58 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Here's more reasons:

Yesterday after work a friend asked if I wanted to ride his Vulcan 900. Air cooled V-Twin, "hidden shock" frame, basically the whole semi-chopper look. The steering was atrocious. The forks flopped from side to side at low speed.
Interesting MCN just said the same thing after their "first ride" on the Rockers. Seems raked out bikes just do that.

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Quality of build and materials: any objective examination of HD against any bike of it's type will reveal outstanding paintwork chrome, etc. Look at a 3 year old Japanese bike next to a Harley after the same time, and all things being equal, the HD will look much better.
This is misleading. I agree Harleys have better paint and chrome too. I do not agree they use a better quality of materials elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Afermarket and independent shops...HD hands down, nothing else is close.

Platform for customization: ditto above.
This is my biggest gripe with Harley. I wish they'd come up with a "build your own" program where the bike would come shipped as requested from the factory. I don't want to stock a **** load of Harley parts I dislike in my garage nor pay for half the bike again to get it right.

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I don't really get that worked up about the "real thing" versus the "copy" issue
It seems only Longride does. I wonder if he would buy a Gibson that sounded poor compared to a half price competitor just because it had prettier fret inlays?

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the Japanese went after the HD market deliberately and specifically. I have no problem with that, why not?
Business 101: Build what the market is clamoring for.
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:38 AM   #314
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Hmmm... Honda sold last year 13 million bikes, HD 0,3 millon so there is still some room for improvement. Honda is aiming for 18 m units in few years. Anyways, that’s beside the point.

The point I am making is that Harley-the-whipping-boy has to start doing some engineering. Losing every test (at ever increasing gap) to the competition will eventually take the lustre off the badge. History is already full of “But we are the Jaguar” type pompous arses. Imagine if Yamaha had a 42% torque advantage since sixties. Nowadays only Harley guys would be a handful of geezers in Alabama.

I am a Harley owner and acutely aware of the fact that pretty much everybody who knows about motorcycles in Finland knows that I am riding a test loser.

- cruiz-euro
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:23 AM   #315
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I am a Harley owner and acutely aware of the fact that pretty much everybody who knows about motorcycles in Finland knows that I am riding a test loser.
I don't have a dog in this race but I can't imagine giving a flying fark what everyone in country X thinks about my ride even if I were to assume that somehow anyone in country X could be bothered to have an opinion on the subject.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:30 AM   #316
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I just love reading this sh1t.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:39 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Gluge View Post
The bikes I own have all won shootouts.

Aprilia RS250 - was pitted against the RGV250 and NSR250 won.
EX500 - It won a lot of shoot outs thought out it's history.
Honda RS125 - It wins a lot of shootouts... if by shoot outs you mean club races.. I've never found any offical reviews of 125 GP bikes...

So did I win the bet? what did I win?

Let me know if your too stupid to figure anything else out, I'll try and clear it up for you

Let me address the point I think you were trying to make though - Of course people don't always buy the bike the wins the shootout, but they'll have some personal reason for that. Maybe the bike that won is the more expensive one, and they don't have enough money, or maybe they don't need as much hpr so they go with one that's better in other ways. Or maybe they're all close so they just go with the one that looks best to them. However if they already had their heart firmly set on one brand and weren't going to consider any other brand... I would ask them why read a review like this? what's the point?

That was the case with the harley. Because even if you don't need the better brakes or power of the yamaha it's still cheaper. No one is going to say "Hey I don't need that much power so I'll pay $8k more not to have it!"
So they never made any bikes better than the ones you own right? Yeah that EX500 is a real Busa killer! LOL What a joke. So you bought them because somebody else said they won? So who is the bigger idiot, the guy that wants a Harley because HE wants it, or you, because you bought what somebody else said is the winner? Who are the REAL sheep?
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:47 AM   #318
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Really? I hear people compare that stuff all the time. Almost anyone in the market for a truck will compare it to other trucks on the basis of how well it accelerates, and what mpg it gets. Of course trucks suck at both but just because your in the market for a vehicle with some common weaknesses doesn't mean you can't pick the one relatively strongest in those areas.

In fact that's often how you get the most rounded vehicles. Take picking a sports car if you pick a sports car based on what sports cars are good at - speed, cornering etc. you'll get a very focused car. If you pick a sports car based on what they're not good at - luggage space, practicality etc. you'll get a much more all round car.
The reason you hear people compare that stuff all the time, is just like you and Wally, they need to justify their purchase by putting someone, or something else down. You both have done it repeatedly with just about every post you make. Can't ride a sportbike? Quit whining and go to the gym stupid! You like Harleys? Well, you are an idiot, they suck! See how that works? Small minds work the same way in ever form of every subject. You seem to have every answer for every question for everyone. I wonder how you know so much in such a short period of time? Must be because you are so much smarter than the rest of us.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:59 AM   #319
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So they never made any bikes better than the ones you own right? Yeah that EX500 is a real Busa killer! LOL What a joke.
Wow your dense if you think a busa is automatically better than an EX500. Different bikes are better for different things, I didn't want to spend much, but I wanted the best first bike for my money, a bike with good performance a bike that would be ok for two people but also handle as well as possible. I read a lot of reviews and recomendations and decided it was probably going to be an EX500. Sure I could have gone out and ridden 50 different bikes but it was my first street bike so besides being very time consuming to ride all these different bikes I trusted the reviews more than the puttering around the city time I would have had to compare them on.

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So you bought them because somebody else said they won? So who is the bigger idiot, the guy that wants a Harley because HE wants it, or you, because you bought what somebody else said is the winner? Who are the REAL sheep?
Right... I'm a sheep because I bought one of the most recommended beginner bikes as my first bike? Or wait is it because I bought an Aprilia RS250? Hahaha!

I'm going to have to remember that the next time someone asks me what bike I'm riding.. "Oh this? you haven't see one before? it's a RS250, you know bike of sheep!"
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:05 AM   #320
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I wondered this myself and if so how much? I choose two bikes randomly:


2004 FLHR Road King - MSRP $16,235 Current KBB re-sale $14525
2004 V-Star 1100 Classic - MSRP $8,099 Current KBB re-sale $5,810

However you have to adjust for inflation - $16,235 in 2004 would be $17,696 and for the yamaha $8,099 today would be $8,828 (9% total inflation from 2004 to 2007)

Total lost value:
FLHR Road King - $3,171
V-Star 1100 Classic - $3,018


Pretty close, feel free to suggest some bikes and I'll do some more, I just randomly picked those two so others might come out differently.

My references:
Inflation Rate Calculator- from InflationData.com
New Car Prices | Used Car Values - Official Kelley Blue Book Site
Easily the most hilarious and one-sided 'comparison' I ever saw! How long did you look before you could 'randomly' find one comparison that would 'prove' your point? It would be funny if it wasn't pathetic! I guess all that money I made over the years selling Harleys for a profit doesn't count! I guess KBB is the REAL authority! LOL Dude, you could keep quoting KBB until you are blue in the face. You can keep saying Harleys suck, You can keep showing me numbers, but at the end of the day, I'll still be riding my Harleys along with the 300,000 other people that will be buying one this year. And when I sell the ones I have, I will bet you that I will make a profit at the end of the day. That is the real world At the price I got my Knuck, I could turn it over right now for at least 7 grand more than I paid for it. Go look up what a 47 Knucklehead is worth in KBB. Maybe you can get together with the 2 other guys that tour on Aprilia 250's and tell yourselves how smart you are.
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