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Old 12-12-2007, 04:03 PM   #291
wallace666
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Neither did I. Hp, handling, braking...etc won't make one bit of difference. HD does cruisers better than any one. It is going to stay that way too.

There is also nothing "blind" about my opinion. I think the roadliner is a superior package. Unless that's what you meant by "blind."
Yea but it does make a difference. The switch to Rotax and Porsche engines is significant and show a change. They are feeling the pinch for more performance to compete and draw the new youngsters into the fold. The rumors of the Vrod motor crossing over into Touring line is significant. The market is and will be changing as the next generation comes into money, they'll want more performance, they're used to it. The new generation also doesn't have the inherent prejudice that the WW2 generation and their offspring have towards the Japanese. At some point the air cooleds will be threatened by cart and epa standards. I can't believe they haven't gone to 4 valve heads and such, Riviera did that years ago for Harleys. They'll either need to do some redesign or go water cooled. The coolness factor will go down when they start to look like all the rest, but if anyone can pull it off it'll be HD. Then fake cylinder cooling fins will be considered cool I guess. heheh

As you say, the tech part of the bike may not make any difference for now with the current buyers, which speaks of the type of buyer now. Nothing wrong with that, it's just kind of ripe the way they shyt on everything else as if they are the best. They are the best chic poser bike. But having said that blasphemy, in the chic category I really like the pearl orange Screamin Eagle Springer and the black Sportster Nightster. The Nightster would be nice to have for running around locally...good looking bike.
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:25 PM   #292
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I think the riding experience is subjective too. I don't like the feel of cruisers (any of 'em) so I don't ride them. I don't like the feel of bikes with fairings so I don't ride them. My feelings are, most assuredly, subjective. It would be the same with people's sense of how a Yamaha cruiser rides, or a Kawasaki cruiser rides, or a Harley, or whatever else. All subjective. It makes perfect sense to me that a bike might have objective numbers that are better than other bikes, but is less enjoyable to ride, so much so that people don't buy it.
But see all the things you said you don't like while they're personal preference they are real solid differences and reasons that could be explained. You don't like the feel of cruisers because of the vibration, seating position, sound or look, could be any one of those differences. You don't like bikes with fairings because you like a lot of wind, or you don't like the look of a fairing.

The only two explanations I've heard for buying the Harley over the yamaha are more accessories for the harley and the harley name (aka yamaha is a copy reason).
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:35 PM   #293
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I think the riding experience is subjective too. I don't like the feel of cruisers (any of 'em) so I don't ride them. I don't like the feel of bikes with fairings so I don't ride them. My feelings are, most assuredly, subjective. It would be the same with people's sense of how a Yamaha cruiser rides, or a Kawasaki cruiser rides, or a Harley, or whatever else. All subjective. It makes perfect sense to me that a bike might have objective numbers that are better than other bikes, but is less enjoyable to ride, so much so that people don't buy it.
Very true, I rode cruisers for many years, got sick of them. Decided to get back into motorcycling for the riding part, tried tons of bikes. A Vmax, two Guzzis, VStrom, a Venture which absolutely convinced me that I am not a touring rig guy. I'm forgetting a few others since my transition? I see you ride what looks like a Hornet 599. I got to ride a friend of mines Hornet, sweet smooth engine and the bike was light and handled well. I also liked the riding position, there are no more clip-ons in my future.

I never thought I would go back to a cruiser again, my recent test rides changed my mind a bit, in the future I can see one in the garage again. Some of them just aren't like it used to be or what would be considered the norm.
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:40 PM   #294
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Yes, it is a 599.
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:47 PM   #295
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Show me the bike that Harley is imitating. Show me just one. Any one. Please save the 'Harley didn't invent the V-Twin' bullshyt. Anyone with two eyes and half a brain can see what the 'Star' motorcycle company represents. I buy an original because it's the real thing, just like my Gibson SG and my Fender Strat. Neither company invented the guitar, but there are about 10 companies that copy everything they do. The Yamaha is an impersonation of the original, just like going to a concert that covers Led Zepplin. They, like Harley did it first, and no matter what someone wants to 'improve' the original can't be beat. What seems retarded is the guy that supposedly hates people that dress up like bad asses and then buys a bike that pretends to be a Harley. Same thing. Oh, and the SUV and TV thing? I leave that for dorks like you to argue over. Again, post a picture of the bike that Harley is imitating.
I'm no motorcycle history expert but my off the hand guess is it looks like an Indian.

Let me show you the problem though with your way of thinking. Let me use your guitar example. You say Fender and Gibson did not invent the guitar, so they took the guitar copied it while at the same time improving it. Right? If your ok with that why aren't you ok with yamaha taking harley's cruiser type motorcycle and copying it while improving it at the same time?

Believe it or not this forum of copying and improving is what has improved motorcycles so much from the 30's. All the japanese bikes started by copying European and American bikes, did that make them bad? of course not they were cheaper and in some ways better and sold like crazy. Because people didn't care who made it only what it was. Thanks to them the japanese motorcycle market too off and the japanese went on to advance motorcycles in many ways. If people gave them a chance with cruisers I'm sure they would advance them some as well. (though I'm not really sure what advances a cruiser besides a lower price...)

Stop buying things for the name! and start buying motorcycles for the ride!
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:22 PM   #296
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I find it funny that you harley guys even read reviews if your not going to accept the winner anyway.

If you say you have to ride or own them to understand... why bother with reviews?

If whatever feeling you get on a harley could be reviewed I'm sure they would try to review it, I guess they couldn't find it though?

I think seeing this thread just makes me ask.... why bother reviewing cruisers? no one will believe the reviews anyway, or care about them.

I say we should all take a moment to tell this to MO and ask them to focus their time and money reviewing bikes that can be reviewed where the reviews will matter... you know sport bikes and DP bikes etc. Thank you
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:23 PM   #297
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But see all the things you said you don't like while they're personal preference they are real solid differences and reasons that could be explained. You don't like the feel of cruisers because of the vibration, seating position, sound or look, could be any one of those differences. You don't like bikes with fairings because you like a lot of wind, or you don't like the look of a fairing.

The only two explanations I've heard for buying the Harley over the yamaha are more accessories for the harley and the harley name (aka yamaha is a copy reason).
And for a cruiser that is based on looks and feelings and not numbers, those are two very valid reasons. There are thousands of people with Harley tattoos. How many have Star tats? I bet almost none. Why is that? Why do people like Hip hop, or rap music? Beats the shyt out of me. I hate it, but when I look at the sales numbers they are reaching people on some kind of level I can't figure out. Doesn't mean it isn't good just because I don't like i, does it? Should I brand all Hip Hoppers as losers because I can't figure out what to like? Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Harleys you either get, or don't get. You don't get it. No big deal, but trying to diminish why someone else gets it makes you look much like the guy with a white shirt and a pocket protector. Valid reasons for wearing both, but you still look like a dork.
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:27 PM   #298
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I find it funny that you harley guys even read reviews if your not going to accept the winner anyway.

If you say you have to ride or own them to understand... why bother with reviews?

If whatever feeling you get on a harley could be reviewed I'm sure they would try to review it, I guess they couldn't find it though?

I think seeing this thread just makes me ask.... why bother reviewing cruisers? no one will believe the reviews anyway, or care about them.

I say we should all take a moment to tell this to MO and ask them to focus their time and money reviewing bikes that can be reviewed where the reviews will matter... you know sport bikes and DP bikes etc. Thank you
I find it even funnier that someone would 'accept a winner' from anyone in ANY motorcycle purchase. What shootout did the bike you ride win? I bet none. Why do you ride it then if it didn't win a shootout? Since you didn't buy a shootout winner, does that make you stupid too? You seem to have all the answers, so please answer these for me. I'm too stupid to figure it out.
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:28 PM   #299
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The only two explanations I've heard for buying the Harley over the yamaha are more accessories for the harley and the harley name (aka yamaha is a copy reason).
Here's more reasons:

Yesterday after work a friend asked if I wanted to ride his Vulcan 900. Air cooled V-Twin, "hidden shock" frame, basically the whole semi-chopper look. The steering was atrocious. The forks flopped from side to side at low speed. This is NOT the first Japanese bike of this type that I've seen that with, and I rode a LOT of them when people traded them in for HD's at the dealership I worked in. I think there is little doubt that HD has done a great job refining their bikes for a century.

At the same aforementioned dealership, I saw what customers got for their used HDs versus their used Japanese cruisers. No comparison, the HDs consistently beat the Japanese in this area, by no small margin.

Quality of build and materials: any objective examination of HD against any bike of it's type will reveal outstanding paintwork chrome, etc. Look at a 3 year old Japanese bike next to a Harley after the same time, and all things being equal, the HD will look much better.

Afermarket and independent shops...HD hands down, nothing else is close.

Platform for customization: ditto above.

I don't really get that worked up about the "real thing" versus the "copy" issue, but as I wrote in a post here a few days ago, if you were even slightly involved with motorcycling in the past 3 decades, you saw that the Japanese went after the HD market deliberately and specifically. I have no problem with that, why not?

And before you think I'm some sort of HD elitist, keep in mind that I recently sold my HD and went out and bought a Japanese bike of a totally different type. However, if I were in the market for a heavyweight V-Twin cruiser, I'd go right out and buy a Harley.

In general, and not in response to this particular post: enough with "you guys" "clicks (cliques)" etc. Sure, there are a lot of regular participants here. It's the same thing at every website like this one that I've been to. CW has Hackasaw and UJM, Stormtroopers has the same crowd every day, etc. It's the nature of the beast. But don't go lumping everyone into some stereotype. For instance, I think LR's argument about brakes is completely wrong. I know for a fact that I would have hit the car that pulled in front of me Monday if I'd been on my old HD or even the Concours. The modern brakes, tires, and suspension on my DL saved my bacon...without skidding, ABS, etc.
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Old 12-12-2007, 05:32 PM   #300
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I'm no motorcycle history expert but my off the hand guess is it looks like an Indian.

Stop buying things for the name! and start buying motorcycles for the ride!
After the first statement you can quit right there. No, it doesn't look like an Indian. Indian went out of business in the 50's Maybe you need to quit buying motorcycles by a spec sheet and 'shootout winners' and worry more about the ride?
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