Go Back   Motorcycle Forum > Motorcycle.Com General Discussion > Motorcycle General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-10-2007, 10:57 AM   #231
anrajala
Founding Member
 
anrajala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,490
Default

limey

- cruiz-euro
anrajala is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links Remove Advertisements
Motorcycle Forum
Advertisement
Old 12-10-2007, 12:43 PM   #232
sarnali2
Aging Cafe` Racer

 
sarnali2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sittin' down by my window, lookin' at the rain.
Posts: 8,719
Default

Don...been swimming lately?
__________________
"Carpe` Throttelum -Loud Suits Save Lives"

"He said he's farting because of his medication"...
sarnali2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 03:32 PM   #233
anrajala
Founding Member
 
anrajala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,490
Default

The more I think about the current situation of HD the more I think of Cadillac (too much red wine perhaps, where the hell is that merlot I refused to drink last week). Excellent brand but it just stopped to deliver. Still a status brand among the eighty year olds. Harley saw it already coming in the good old bad days, saw the light and came up with the Evo and hey it was rock’n’roll all over again. And then the ball dropped again. Today Harley gets its arse totally whooped by every single company that does big cruisers. WTF.

So what I am saying is that look at the Caddy, Jag, Merc, Bimmer and Lexus. Everybody survives (ok some barely) but what’s common with those who are on the roll: they are going for engineering excellence.

- cruiz-euro
anrajala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 05:04 PM   #234
seruzawa
The Toad

 
seruzawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 8501 ft.
Posts: 17,461
Default Engineering excellence....

Quote:
Originally Posted by anrajala View Post
The more I think about the current situation of HD the more I think of Cadillac (too much red wine perhaps, where the hell is that merlot I refused to drink last week). Excellent brand but it just stopped to deliver. Still a status brand among the eighty year olds. Harley saw it already coming in the good old bad days, saw the light and came up with the Evo and hey it was rock’n’roll all over again. And then the ball dropped again. Today Harley gets its arse totally whooped by every single company that does big cruisers. WTF.

So what I am saying is that look at the Caddy, Jag, Merc, Bimmer and Lexus. Everybody survives (ok some barely) but what’s common with those who are on the roll: they are going for engineering excellence.

- cruiz-euro
does not = maximum horsepower. If it did then every engine would be a supercharged minimum of 4 cylinders. And EVERY V-TWIN CRUISER BUILT WOULD BE CRAP including the Yamaha in question because it is easily outclassed by virtually any I-4 ever made. HD has been behind the power curve since the 60's and the people who like them don't seem to care. HD's imminent demise due yo lack of power/cc has been predicted by "geniuses" since the 60's. Why should anyone believe such predictions now?

Solipsism is a bytch.

Your personal preferences are not divine revelation. They are just your personal preferences. As are mine or anyone else's. Most of us don't care what others ride. Why should you get so exercised? I don't get what the motivation is to make everyone else look inferior. No matter how hard you try to "prove" that everyone who believes differently than you is "wrong" you will never feel one bit better about yourself.

Let your anger go...... don't fall prey to the dark side. Longride is your father......
__________________
"Make no mistake, Communism lost a big argument - one we know today as the 20th century."
seruzawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 07:16 PM   #235
Gluge
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
does not = maximum horsepower. If it did then every engine would be a supercharged minimum of 4 cylinders. And EVERY V-TWIN CRUISER BUILT WOULD BE CRAP including the Yamaha in question because it is easily outclassed by virtually any I-4 ever made. HD has been behind the power curve since the 60's and the people who like them don't seem to care. HD's imminent demise due yo lack of power/cc has been predicted by "geniuses" since the 60's. Why should anyone believe such predictions now?
Yes your dead right about power. Most people don't care if it makes the most power, I am one of them. As long a bike as enough power for decent freeway acceleration it's enough for me.

But if I have to pay more for less power, if I have to give up better brakes and still pay more... that doesn't make sense to me.

Unless I am mistaken according to the review the Yamaha was better in every way except looks quick a review isn't really for anyway since them very subjective and everyone can just look at them (no need to read a review about how well something looks)

My guess is that people who will buy the harley over the yamaha are only doing it because of the looks, and the brand. A brand is only as good as it's products though, it can only ride on that so long. Will people really be willing to pay $8k more just for looks and a brand name while giving up the extra power, better brakes etc. ?

Probably but that doesn't mean won't think they're silly for doing it, and it doesn't mean I can't hold on to some hope that harley can eventualy compete directly with out having to fall back on it's name.


That said, there are some similarities with buying an italian sport bike over a japanese. You spend more for the italian bike and sometimes you don't get quite as much performance. You do almost always get better looks (subjective) though. The differences aren't as big though, usualy your only giving up a bit of top end power and only paying $3k more or something.

Still in the face of this I must admit I recently spent $5400 on a 97' italian sport bike that only makes 70 hpr, when for that same money I could have gotten a 2002 GSXR-750, with 140 hpr or so. Why did I do it? for one I don't need more than 70 hpr, 2nd.. I just love that special feeling I get from a 2-stroke powerband, and I do get a bit better handling.

Maybe Harley gives it's riders something special I just wish someone would tell me, anyone?
__________________
#867 Barrett Meeker Racing
Gaerne - Regina - Shoei - Bridgestone
-----------
Supervisor - Blur Studio

Endorsed by Longride - "Of course your points are unarguable. You are the smartest guy in the whole world ... What you really taught me is how little I really know about motorcycles and how much you know. Yes, you are the best and the smartest."
Gluge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 07:44 PM   #236
silentgrayfellow
Founding Member
 
silentgrayfellow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gluge View Post
Why did I do it? for one I don't need more than 70 hpr, 2nd.. I just love that special feeling I get from a 2-stroke powerband, and I do get a bit better handling.

Maybe Harley gives it's riders something special I just wish someone would tell me, anyone?
You already have the answer. "I just love that special feeling" is kind of like saying "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand". I have owned both H-D and metrics from 3 of the big 4 Japanese brands. I like 'em all, but with the Harleys I felt like I had a relationship with the bike. I think it's partly because with a Harley there is so much you can do to personalize the bike and make it unique. The metric cruisers are getting better in this regard, but still not such a blank canvas.

The other thing is just that magic something. It's like being in love, you get a special feeling. Apparently it's not for everyone, and I respect everyone's choice in bikes. I don't like the Harley riders that bash metrics (usually a sign of ignorance), nor the reverse.

I'm happy to have such a wide range of choices.
silentgrayfellow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 07:57 PM   #237
Gluge
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silentgrayfellow View Post
You already have the answer. "I just love that special feeling" is kind of like saying "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand". I have owned both H-D and metrics from 3 of the big 4 Japanese brands. I like 'em all, but with the Harleys I felt like I had a relationship with the bike. I think it's partly because with a Harley there is so much you can do to personalize the bike and make it unique. The metric cruisers are getting better in this regard, but still not such a blank canvas.

The other thing is just that magic something. It's like being in love, you get a special feeling. Apparently it's not for everyone, and I respect everyone's choice in bikes. I don't like the Harley riders that bash metrics (usually a sign of ignorance), nor the reverse.

I'm happy to have such a wide range of choices.
Well that sort of answers it but you didn't quote me totally. I said I love that special feeling you get from a 2-stroke power band. That is something very different that other bikes don't give you (well not many and I would have been fine with one of the others) I didn't just leave it at a "special feeling" I figured the harleys give people a special feeling I was asking what it was.

So your saying the special thing about Harleys is being able to personalize it?

I could see that I guess... but anyone who can do a bit of welding an fabricating could customize any bike and it would be truly customizing not just buying bolt on accessories from a catalog.
__________________
#867 Barrett Meeker Racing
Gaerne - Regina - Shoei - Bridgestone
-----------
Supervisor - Blur Studio

Endorsed by Longride - "Of course your points are unarguable. You are the smartest guy in the whole world ... What you really taught me is how little I really know about motorcycles and how much you know. Yes, you are the best and the smartest."
Gluge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 08:10 PM   #238
seruzawa
The Toad

 
seruzawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: 8501 ft.
Posts: 17,461
Default

If you check the braking tests on bikes you'll see that there's no evidence that sportbikes stop more quickly than cruisers. The data just isn't there. Yeah, cruiser brakes aren't as strong but all you have to do is squeeze harder. Virtually all bikes stop between 110 and 120 feet from 60 mph. Maybe the Yamaha is "better in every way" than a Harley but a Bandit is better in every way than ANY cruiser. Not a good argument. The only important vote is the vote made with dollars and the market has decided that for cruisers Harley is better in every way. HD sells more than all the Big4 combined.

It's good you're happy with 70hp because in a few years there are going to be hp limits anyhow.

Have you ever gone for a ride on a cruiser with the old lady on the back? Who knows. You might like it. Or not. You might be surprised at what a hoot an ElectraGlide can be. There's satisfaction in hauling that big rig around corners.

Owning a bike at all is an irrational decision anyhow. They cost as much as cars and are terribly unsafe in comparison. So it's better not to worry too much about someone else's bike preference. Glass houses.

I'm not into cruisers but they can make excellent touring rigs. Currently I'm running a ZRX1100 and a GL1100 and a Magna. The cruiser is going away this spring for a DP. Canyonlands is calling me.

The important thing is that people have fun riding. I'm happy to see any type of bike on the road. It means more votes at election time to resist the nanny-staters. The HD guys outnumber everyone and are politically active so you'd better hope they decide to write their congressmen when the govt decides to restrict sportbikes. Be nice to them. Without their help we are screwed.
__________________
"Make no mistake, Communism lost a big argument - one we know today as the 20th century."
seruzawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 08:50 PM   #239
BrowningBAR
Snuggles

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In a really, really, really old farmhouse
Posts: 4,369
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
If you check the braking tests on bikes you'll see that there's no evidence that sportbikes stop more quickly than cruisers. The data just isn't there.
There’s a keyboard in Seattle that's getting it's ass kicked right now. White knuckled fists raining down on an innocent keyboard.
BrowningBAR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2007, 09:09 PM   #240
Gluge
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
If you check the braking tests on bikes you'll see that there's no evidence that sportbikes stop more quickly than cruisers. The data just isn't there. Yeah, cruiser brakes aren't as strong but all you have to do is squeeze harder. Virtually all bikes stop between 110 and 120 feet from 60 mph. Maybe the Yamaha is "better in every way" than a Harley but a Bandit is better in every way than ANY cruiser. Not a good argument. The only important vote is the vote made with dollars and the market has decided that for cruisers Harley is better in every way. HD sells more than all the Big4 combined.
I never said sport bikes stop quicker, I'm pretty sure they don't stop as quickly actually since they lift the rear easily in the dry anyway. I just meant the yamaha has better brakes than the harley - I was comparing them.

I know how well they sell I was just wondering why and if it would keep up in light of cheaper and 'better' japanese cruisers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
It's good you're happy with 70hp because in a few years there are going to be hp limits anyhow.

Have you ever gone for a ride on a cruiser with the old lady on the back? Who knows. You might like it. Or not. You might be surprised at what a hoot an ElectraGlide can be. There's satisfaction in hauling that big rig around corners.
I have borrowed a FJR1300 for a week and took my fiancee on several rides on it. It was quite nice as a 2-up bike. It had a few short commings in my mind though - too wide to split some lanes on, and suspension was too soft, bike tended to wallow in corners. The suspension you could fix but the width you couldn't and in LA one of the main reasons my fiancee and I take the bike is lane splitting.

I have also borrowed a 1985 GSXR-750 with raised bars, tall wind screen, lowered passenger pegs, and a tail trunk. I found it much better for two people, it has a single EX500 style seat and with the passenger bars lowered it's plenty comfortable for 2 up. But it's quite narrow and great for lane splitting, it was a bit loud though and the brakes could be better but the muffler wasn't stock and you can get a new master cylinder pretty easily. I think sport bikes like this with the single seat for passenger and rider actually make some of the best touring rigs with a bit of modification.

Judging by that I don't think I would like a cruiser but if I get the chance I will try one and give it a chance.

Both were better than my aprilia RS250 for 2-up though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
Owning a bike at all is an irrational decision anyhow. They cost as much as cars and are terribly unsafe in comparison. So it's better not to worry too much about someone else's bike preference. Glass houses.
Some what yes. However they're less irrational than many sports cars and people always compare performance on those. I bought my first bike purely for practical reasons actually, an EX500. I wanted to be able to split lanes, park easily and get good mpg, while still being able to travel on the freeway at a decent clip.

While a really cheap car might have been cheaper it wouldn't beat it by much. I got the bike for $1200, only cost $80 / year to insure, got 50 mpg.. good enough power for two people. I welded up a tail trunk mount for it and rode it to monteray. Tires were pretty cheap too and if you wanted to you could get race take offs for practically nothing.

Also unlike most cars I could easily work on it myself. So I think bikes can be practical. Even my RS250 I still get 35 mph and I still get to split lanes and park easily, and it's still super simple to work on.
__________________
#867 Barrett Meeker Racing
Gaerne - Regina - Shoei - Bridgestone
-----------
Supervisor - Blur Studio

Endorsed by Longride - "Of course your points are unarguable. You are the smartest guy in the whole world ... What you really taught me is how little I really know about motorcycles and how much you know. Yes, you are the best and the smartest."

Last edited by Gluge : 12-11-2007 at 09:15 PM.
Gluge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off