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Old 11-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #81
Buzglyd
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Originally Posted by anrajala View Post
America is the only place I know where the poor are raging against univesal health care to cover themselves and their families.

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That's because the poor in America know they have a higher standard of living than the middle class in socialist countries. Free has a price.

Plus, we've all been to the DMV.
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:53 AM   #82
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>Even Hitler was nice to the children of his friends

Well he wasn't all that nice to the children of his opponents. He put them into the gas chambers. In fact the crippled children were taken directly to be burned alive with the corpses - too cumbersome to move them around. No bleeding heart liberal that guy Hitler.

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Old 11-18-2007, 11:09 AM   #83
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>higher standard of living than the middle class in socialist countries.

Socialist countries? Are we aiming low. How about making comparisons to other western industrialized countries? Which, incidentally, all have universal health care but not the States.

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Old 11-18-2007, 11:09 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Buzglyd View Post
That's because the poor in America know they have a higher standard of living than the middle class in socialist countries. Free has a price.

Plus, we've all been to the DMV.
The poor have seen the VA hospitals. Who wouldn't demand to be treated in one of the already available govt run health care centers? You are such an oppressor! Soon we will all have the pleasure of govt run health care. I mean, just look at all the Canadians and Europeans who love their system and don't run to the USA for treatment if they can.

Two years ago the Brits gave a billion pounds to the national health care agency to reduce waiting times for treatment. The health care bureaucrats spent the entire amount hiring more bureaucrats and paying big executive bonuses. A sane society would arrest, try and execute such evil murderers for the deaths of people who died awaiting treatment.

Breast Cancer Death rate in England = 57%.
Breast Cancer Death rate in the USA = 17%.

One out of 5 people diagnosed with colon cancer die in Canada simply because it takes many months to start treatment.

Who wouldn't want socialized medicine? It's a tried and true method of reducing excess population. Like Holland where they simply murder the elderly. Oops I mean they ensure an "acceptable quality of life" as determined by soulless bureaucrats.

The fact is that the poor in America get better treatment than any of the middle class in the nations with socialized medicine. It's called charity. That's what happens when people get to keep their own money instead of having it all taken to pay fat salaries to incompetent lazy govt "workers" who can never be held accountable for their evils.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:24 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anrajala View Post
>higher standard of living than the middle class in socialist countries.

Socialist countries? Are we aiming low. How about making comparisons to other western industrialized countries? Which, incidentally, all have universal health care but not the States.

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OK, I don't really understand your statement at all - what part of "Universal Health Care" is NOT "Socialized Medicine"?

Ergo; What "non-socialized countries" are these of which you speak?

I'm not steppin' on your nuts here - I just don't get it.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:33 AM   #86
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>The fact is that the poor in America get better treatment than
>any of the middle class in the nations with socialized medicine.

Being in the coveted position of having been poor both in the States and in Finland, among others, I can assure you that poor people get far better treatment where there is universal health care. And I am not alone in my opinions:

"Americans spend $5,267 per capita on health care every year, almost two and half times the industrialized world’s median of $2,193; the extra spending comes to hundreds of billions of dollars a year. What does that extra spending buy us?

Americans have fewer doctors per capita than most Western countries. We go to the doctor less than people in other Western countries. We get admitted to the hospital less frequently than people in other Western countries. We are less satisfied with our health care than our counterparts in other countries.

American life expectancy is lower than the Western average. Childhood-immunization rates in the United States are lower than average. Infant-mortality rates are in the nineteenth percentile of industrialized nations...

Nor is our system more efficient. The United States spends more than a thousand dollars per capita per year—or close to four hundred billion dollars—on health-care-related paperwork and administration, whereas Canada, for example, spends only about three hundred dollars per capita."

Dept. of Public Policy: The Moral-Hazard Myth: The New Yorker

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Old 11-18-2007, 11:49 AM   #87
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Well it really depens on what is meant by "socialist country". If universal health care is enough to classify a country socialist, then the only non-socialist countries on the planet are USA, Bongolandia and Rutabagastan. And of course Glerb.

Socialism, as understood in Europe where we actually had lots of the stuff, is a system where the means of production i.e. companies are all owned by the government.

Calling universal health care "socialist medicine" is OK but then you should call also your justice system "socialist justice system". And education, military, immigration agency, FAA etc. they are all socialist.

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Old 11-18-2007, 01:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anrajala View Post
>The fact is that the poor in America get better treatment than
>any of the middle class in the nations with socialized medicine.

Being in the coveted position of having been poor both in the States and in Finland, among others, I can assure you that poor people get far better treatment where there is universal health care. And I am not alone in my opinions:

"Americans spend $5,267 per capita on health care every year, almost two and half times the industrialized world’s median of $2,193; the extra spending comes to hundreds of billions of dollars a year. What does that extra spending buy us?

Americans have fewer doctors per capita than most Western countries. We go to the doctor less than people in other Western countries. We get admitted to the hospital less frequently than people in other Western countries. We are less satisfied with our health care than our counterparts in other countries.

American life expectancy is lower than the Western average. Childhood-immunization rates in the United States are lower than average. Infant-mortality rates are in the nineteenth percentile of industrialized nations...

Nor is our system more efficient. The United States spends more than a thousand dollars per capita per year—or close to four hundred billion dollars—on health-care-related paperwork and administration, whereas Canada, for example, spends only about three hundred dollars per capita."

Dept. of Public Policy: The Moral-Hazard Myth: The New Yorker

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there's two of you then.

No thanks. I read about the guy a few months back who nearly died from an abcessed tooth because he couldn't get into a dentist in the great land of the workers paradise.

There's no one prob;em with the USA's health care system that will be solced by handing control of it to unaccountable bureaucrats. If you want to entrust your life to the same sort of people who run FEMA then be my guest. You already have. LOL! Hope you don't come down with a serious illness. If you do make sure your will is up to date.
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Old 11-18-2007, 01:45 PM   #89
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And for what it's worth it's socialized (not socialist) medicine.

Defined by Merriam-Webster as "medical and hospital services for the members of a class or population administered by an organized group (as a state agency) and paid for from funds obtained usually by assessments, philanthropy, or taxation"

There's no definition for the term "socialized justice" because there isn't a great deal of debate as to whether government does a better job (not a good job, just a better job) of meting out justice than an impromptu cadre of individuals. The debate about the quality of tax payer health care vs. private ("free market" health care) is quite lively. I think suggesting there is any contradiction in accepting crime and punishment as a government institution while refusing health care as a government institution is based on a spurious sort of logic.
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:03 AM   #90
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>There's no one prob;em with the USA's health care system that will
>be solced by handing control of it to unaccountable bureaucrats.

Hmmm... so it is better to hand control to private corporation whose main objective is to maximise profits? Not surprisingly you pay double (and for inferior care).

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