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Old 09-18-2007, 10:40 AM   #71
tvrides
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<...> the only reason that Yamaha (cough) Star exists is BECAUSE of Harley.
Hard to believe that the orginal air-cooled Yamaha V-twin (XV750 Virago) debuted back in the 1981 model year:
Yamaha Virago - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

As for the Star brand, it's all about upscale marketing as with Honda (Acura), Toyota (Lexus), and Nissen (Infinity).

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They wouldn't have made bike #1 if Harley didn't make air cooled, V-Twin, pushrod, belt-driven cruisers cool.
The coolosity factor isn't without merit. Let's keep in mind that there was/is a demand for more affordable and reliable high tech cruisers. Take the 1996 Kawasaki Vulcan 1500, for example, which looks roughly like a Harley-Davidson Shovelhead (stripped FLH1200) albeit with liquid-cooling, shaft-drive, and sohc cylinders with dual plugs.

Many of those who purchased the original '96 Vulcan 1500 Classic said that it was a "Harley Should've Been" rather than a "Harley Wannabe". In fact, it's still available as a 2008 model albeit with FI for under $10K.

However, there are other metric cruisers with absolutely no price advantages to the comparable Harley-Davidson. Whether the metric cruisers are more or less reliable/durable than the Harleys is probably a non-factor these days. However, the typical metric cruiser usually offers roomier ergonomics than your average Harley.

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Maybe you didn't remember back in the 80's when Harley was going under and the tariffs were coming to Japanese makers. Honda and YAMAHA complained that they were not to blame for Harley's woes and the fact that Harley made AN INFERIOR V-TWIN compared to their SUPERIOR INLINE FOUR was the reason they were going under.
Actually, the Japanese were *dumping* their bikes in the USA when demand slackened back then. IOW, overproduction and tepid demand resulted in steeply discounted prices.

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Check out how many INFERIOR V-TWINS Honda and Yamaha make now!
Am sure we all recall the Honda 1500 Valkyrie, but the demand simply wasn't high enought to continue production so they replaced it with the VTX1800.

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Harley invented cool, and the Japanese want to cash in on cool at all costs.
There's something to be said for Triumph being the cool bikes rather than Harley until years later. Marlon Brando played Johnny in "The Wild One" astride a Triumph 650 Thunderbird while Lee Marvin was the badass onna Panhead.

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So you hate those $30,000 fake Harley bikers who are all a joke, but all those fake $20,000 Yamaha (cough) Star bikers are OK in your book?.
Not much difference btw either camps despite the $10,000 difference.

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Does that Yamaha(cough) Star bike or jacket make them fight any better? I was just asking because I guess in your mind, a fake biker riding a fake bike is better than a fake biker riding the real deal?
Regardless of whether one is fixated on the real bike/fake bike and/or real biker/fake biker mindset, do keep in mind that the metric competition has almost certainly resulted in better and better Harleys. If Harley continued to be the only surviving V-twin manufacturer in the planet, it'd have a monopoly on the market with little incentive to improve their products.

BTW, we shouldn't judge people for WHAT they look like, but for WHO they are. I usually wear a black FF helmet and First Gear Mesh-Tex 3 jacket because that's what I feel comfortable with. Not into the psuedo-outlaw wannabe nor power rangers image. That's not much different from playing cowboys and indians during our formative years. LOL!

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Harley was and is the real deal for over 100 years. If they supposedly copied a V-Twin 100 years ago, which nobody ever proved they did, so what? What does that have to do with the bikes they are making 100 years later that the Japanese first branded as 'inferior' and now copy to the last detail?.
Now that's what I'd call a suitable retort!

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Gibson didn't invent the guitar, but there are about 100 cheap Les Paul clones out there aren't there? Nobody would say they weren't copies of the Les Paul. Why would you deny this bike is a Harley copy then? In summation, the Fake Star brand and their fake motorcycles are fine. Ride them all you want. Call a spade a spade and just admit what they are.
In summation, there'll always be those who absolutely must own a Harley-Davidson and those who want the absolute best product for the money which might be a metric cruiser. It's hard to tell the difference btw all the different cruisers out there unless you get close enough.

I wonder if Easy Rider would've done as well had they been riding customized Honda CB750Ks.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:55 AM   #72
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None of what you said refuted one thing I said. Star is a fake company that makes copycat motorcycles. Their fake tough-guy riders deserve no more 'kudos' or respect than that of any other brand. And if Fonda rode a Honda? Well, if the Queen had balls, she'd be King now wouldn't she?
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:07 AM   #73
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Exactly!! All these bikes, including the origin of Harley are copies of something else. So what's your point? That's why I say ride what you want and enjoy motorcycling. Your an exact example of what I was illustrating, you come on to a Jap clone thread, we don't get to talk about the awesome 113" engine in the Raider with all the latest and greatest tech, coatings and all, an engine Harley should buy and take apart to copy the superior manufacturing so their bikes will last, or the slick shifting bullet proof Jap tranny and the excellent brakes that are standard. Instead we have a guy like you that logs in and bashes another bike/brand that others may be interested in. You have nothing to say about the tech of the bike? You are an example of the kind of person that many don't want to hang or ride with. Most riders on Harley clones ride them because they want to ride a V-Twin cruiser, they just don't want to hang out with the Harely riders and participate in the superiorority complex you guys have.(price in some case too, heheh) I'm an old Harley rider, and I can't stomach the new style wannabes and the b.s. It's why I will ride something else nowadays and stay away from that pathetic crap.

You scream superiorority, but in fact Harleys are still inferior to all other comparable offerings and cost significantly more. The VRod is in the game, but it has a German engine. Buell now is getting competative, but they are moving to Rotax motors.

As far as the Star Club, to me it's looks like the HOG Club. Those people on all sides are doing a social gig, good for them, I'm not into it, I also find the riders on other Jap V-Twins and the like that are fully leathered out in black, with skull head wraps and cut off gloves pretty funny too. They're no different than the yuppies on Harleys. But all these people going somewhere and posing is as old as human existance. Some choose to participate, some don't. If it makes them all happy, right on.

But like they say, opinions are like azzholes, everybody has one. I've found that where ever I ride, no matter what kind of bike a person is riding, if you take the time to talk to them, we're all the same, some just like to live a fantasy more than others. The V-Twin market thrives on fantasy. The whole market is selling a fantasy, an image of freedom and if you pay the price of admission you too can be outlaw rebel. Pretty damn funny! But, people take it seriously, fact of life. It sure makes for a great motorcycle market in this country!

We could argue this in a circle ad nauseum, close to that now, but for me, I really like the look of the Raider, kinda like a Wide Glide SoftTail. It costs about the same as an HD, and to me, since I'm not trying to have an image or fantasy, it's a great bike due to huge engine and the Jap quality and reliabilty. One other simple fact is that both brands, Yami Raider and HD Wide Glide Softtail, in stock configurataion, I would imagine the HD will be in the Yami's mirrors in the straights and in the corners, I want performance out of the box.

BTW, what's a guy with a knucklehead doing here in the first place?? I think you have a desire for a Jap clone, fuel injection, smooth clutch and trans, do you want to make a confession here?? Come on man, get it out, set yourself free!! haha

Hey tvrides, you are an example of rational thought, good sensible post. I felt like cutting and pasting your last response, it sums up my thoughts, I just tend to sling a bit more shyt......
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:26 AM   #74
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The suck-ass Buell 1125R is a clone of the Ducati 1098. Water cooled V-Twin sportbike. Next thing you know, a bunch of Buell riding Ducatisi wannabes are going to be riding around with Icon jackets, Sidi boots, Arai helmets. They'll be doing stoppies in the Home Depot parking lots, wheelies on the Interstates, and hanging out at the tracks on the weekends. F*cking POSERS!!
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:58 AM   #75
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Good Point! Or it's a clone of an Aprilia? The VRod is a clone of a VMax, and on and on. Harley is desperately wanting to put a water cooled engine in it's big twins, especially the touring barges, it's only a matter of time. Then those will be a copy of Jap bikes right? Maybe when all these transitions are complete, the HD crowd will acknowledge reality, or they'll be stuck on old iron and all the wrenching and side of the road action that involves..............One thing though, I wear my old HD Brand boots while riding a Moto Guzzi and a Suzuki VStrom, also have a Joe Rocket Mesh, an Icon Leather Jacket, I sure hope I'm not committing any fashion crimes...

Well, I'm looking for a cruiser, Fat Boys and Springer Softails are going for cheap now, dime a dozen in the market, I was considering that direction, but when I got the email about the Raider, it just got my blood boiling! It looks good in the plain black version, the Red bling model looks good, but I'd rather have the mellow one. Main thing is that engine! I can't wait until they hit the show rooms, I have to see one in person, hear the engine run and try it out. All this "real deal" and "image fantasy" crap is just that, crap. I'm looking for solid reliable bike, serious engine with some style.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:08 PM   #76
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Dude, you blew a gasket because you like copycat motorcycles. You don't want to ride with me? Geez, I'm all broke up now. Where can I find someone that likes copycat motorcycles to ride with now? I guess I'll have to ride my inferior Harley all by myself. The shame of it all. I love how people get all worked up and make up shyt that I said just to PROVE once and for all their bike isn't a fake. If you like fakes it's cool with me. Just quit making up excuses!
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:12 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
The suck-ass Buell 1125R is a clone of the Ducati 1098. Water cooled V-Twin sportbike. Next thing you know, a bunch of Buell riding Ducatisi wannabes are going to be riding around with Icon jackets, Sidi boots, Arai helmets. They'll be doing stoppies in the Home Depot parking lots, wheelies on the Interstates, and hanging out at the tracks on the weekends. F*cking POSERS!!
Who caires? They ALL copieed Otto's 4 stroke cycle internal combustion engeene and so they are all copycats and posers! Merde!

Of course Otto stole hees idea from French inventore Jacques LeBlanc, murdered him and destroyed Jacque's noetes.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:24 PM   #78
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One thing though, I wear my old HD Brand boots while riding a Moto Guzzi and a Suzuki VStrom, also have a Joe Rocket Mesh, an Icon Leather Jacket, I sure hope I'm not committing any fashion crimes...
You are committing a fashion crime. Why are you wearing HD branded anything? I'm sure you could have found a superior Japanese product at a lower price that looked just like it!
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:25 PM   #79
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None of what you said refuted one thing I said. Star is a fake company that makes copycat motorcycles. Their fake tough-guy riders deserve no more 'kudos' or respect than that of any other brand. And if Fonda rode a Honda? Well, if the Queen had balls, she'd be King now wouldn't she?
It wasn't my intention to refute anything you said, but got to say that using a flyswatter rather than a hammer would generate more good will on this forum.

Yamaha/Star and Suzuki/Boulevard isn't much different from Harley/Buell. All 3 offer sportbikes and cruisers, and prefer to designate their own brand names.

Used to be an UAW at the GMAD in Fremont, CA. There's no difference btw a Chevrolet truck and a GMC truck other than the badges so, pray tell, which one is the real truck and which one is the fake truck?

Star does offer copycat images, but those bikes were designed from the ground-up. Nothing on those bikes will fit a so-called *real* motorcycle. OTOH, where's the outcry when it comes to the *real* clones of Harley-Davidson such as Big Dog, for instance?

Is a real rider on a fake motorcycle better than a fake rider on a real motorcycle?

FWIW, Fonda rides a MV Agusta F4-1000 sportbike these days:
Going his way - Los Angeles Times
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:34 PM   #80
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It wasn't my intention to refute anything you said, but got to say that using a flyswatter rather than a hammer would generate more good will on this forum.

Star does offer copycat images, but those bikes were designed from the ground-up. Nothing on those bikes will fit a so-called *real* motorcycle. OTOH, where's the outcry when it comes to the *real* clones of Harley-Davidson such as Big Dog, for instance?

Is a real rider on a fake motorcycle better than a fake rider on a real motorcycle?

FWIW, Fonda rides a MV Agusta F4-1000 sportbike these days:
Going his way - Los Angeles Times

Good for Fonda! But he still rode a Panhead in Easy Rider. I rode a Hayabusa for most of this year. Does that make me something special? All the outcry is from the guys that can't admit what this bike is. They will cry about Harley this and Harley that until the sun sets, but at the end of the day, Yamaha built a fake company to promote copycat motorcycles that Harley made famous and in turn made them famous. The other clone companies are the same as Star. They were formed to cash in on the Harley Cash Cow. My prediction: When Harley falters and cruisers become uncool, Yamaha and the others clones will abandon ship in a big hurry. The process has already begun. They never wanted to make this crap in the first place, but if the money is green I doubt they care what they have to copy to make it.
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