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Old 06-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #11
schizuki
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Of course this begs the question: how long can Hardly a Davidson dam up the water and antifreeze from their engine?
Harley has a liquid-cooled model. It's called a V-Rod. It supplements their traditional air-cooled models.

BMW has a liquid-cooled Boxer model, reviewed here, called the R1200GS. It supplements their traditional air-cooled models.

In neither case did anyone storm the dealerships with torches. Offered a choice, riders are exercising it, free from the diktat of those who know what's best for them. Given that the customer demographic profile of both companies is nearly identical, that's not surprising.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:17 PM   #12
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At 20k they should include the bags. The Multistrada S touring does at that price point.
Even my Standard came with Bags this year. Just dropped her off for the 600 mile first service. Love those expensive oil changes.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:42 PM   #13
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Harley has a liquid-cooled model. It's called a V-Rod. It supplements their traditional air-cooled models.

BMW has a liquid-cooled Boxer model, reviewed here, called the R1200GS. It supplements their traditional air-cooled models.

In neither case did anyone storm the dealerships with torches. Offered a choice, riders are exercising it, free from the diktat of those who know what's best for them. Given that the customer demographic profile of both companies is nearly identical, that's not surprising.
All that's true, but so what? The VRod has been a monumental flop. HD built an entire factory for them and lost millions on it. And the question remains: if HD finds themselves, like BMW, pushed into water cooling on their Big Twin bikes, will it pass with little fanfare, or will there be an uproar?

Were you around when HD went to belt drive, or when they put Japanese starter motors on the bikes? The "faithful" had conniption fits, I kid you not.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #14
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Harley has a liquid-cooled model. It's called a V-Rod. It supplements their traditional air-cooled models.
Do they now?

And, Does It?

The Faithful barely acknowledge the existence of the T!tster - but it's not a "Real Motorcycle" (although it's the fastest, highest-performing POS they make, now that they finally shook-off from around their necks that Millstone of lleuB...).
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:26 PM   #15
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All that's true, but so what? The VRod has been a monumental flop. HD built an entire factory for them and lost millions on it. And the question remains: if HD finds themselves, like BMW, pushed into water cooling on their Big Twin bikes, will it pass with little fanfare, or will there be an uproar?

Were you around when HD went to belt drive, or when they put Japanese starter motors on the bikes? The "faithful" had conniption fits, I kid you not.
God wants the faithful to get a brain and then use it. I doubt BMW was pushed into anything. If the faithful want underpowered heavy bikes give them up.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:42 PM   #16
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I think the support is there for the Vrod engine, just not in the frame geometry they saddled it with. I personally think a more robust Vrod line including baggers and more traditionally styled bikes would work. At some point they'll probably have to do it just like Triumph will with the Bonnevilles and BMW did with the new GS motor.

BMW was slated to discontinue the R series in the mid 80's when the K bikes came out, it was the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Beemer traditionalists that kept the twin alive though it did evolve into the oilhead type 259 engines in the mid 90's A water cooled R-GS is just a natural proggression from there.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:26 AM   #17
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Funny how people get all wound up about such details. Show me the engine with the most power, efficiency and durability, and I am in. Cool sound is a nice bonus.

Yamaha is rumored to be working on a 3 cylinder crossplane engine. I sincerely hope so!
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:54 AM   #18
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I doubt BMW was pushed into anything.
I think they were. They were "pushed" by serious competition in the big ADV market space. And it appears their reaction was pretty effective; in this month's Cycle World comparo of the Super Ten and the new GS, the GS kicked ass on engine performance.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Spaceman View Post
All that's true, but so what? The VRod has been a monumental flop. HD built an entire factory for them and lost millions on it. And the question remains: if HD finds themselves, like BMW, pushed into water cooling on their Big Twin bikes, will it pass with little fanfare, or will there be an uproar?

Were you around when HD went to belt drive, or when they put Japanese starter motors on the bikes? The "faithful" had conniption fits, I kid you not.
I think what has been effective for BMW with this is that it doesn't look much different.

I saw one at the dealer and the boxer engine still has cooling fins. The radiator is kind of tucked up high.

I don't think this would be as easy to do for Harley on non-touring models.

Anyway, Yamaha seems to pump out air-cooled big twins without much criticism.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:17 AM   #20
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I think they were. They were "pushed" by serious competition in the big ADV market space. And it appears their reaction was pretty effective; in this month's Cycle World comparo of the Super Ten and the new GS, the GS kicked ass on engine performance.
Production and distribution of the GS like many models are driven by demand hence by definition pulled from the manufacturer by the market. BMW has not been pushed by the market to offer engineering enhancements to products that are within the maturity stage of their life cycle. The adventure bike segment like many segments of the motorcycle market are benefitting from new technologies that previously did not exist. These technologies were developed because of market demand. Product development is driven by demand. HD is successful pushing old technology because that brand is selling an image more than new technology. Any product can become undesireable if it becomes too complex. Form is one aspect. Function is another. Retro bikes made with new alloys, electronics, modern tires and materials like your CB were developed because of market demand. I would rather have a new machine with new technologies than and old machine with old technology. Unless of course the new technologies offer no real advantage. Market demand for innovation can be the driving force behind product development. HD market demand and product development are driven by form more than function. BMW is different. Just a matter of semantics.
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