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Old 10-03-2011, 10:23 AM   #31
Kevin_Duke
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Originally Posted by The Spaceman View Post
I commented on them. I said the new bike "looks dope," which is a very trendy catchphrase. I've seen at least one other set of pictures of the bike in one of this month's crop of moto-mags. Guess I'll take a second look tonight; I didn't notice if they said it was an "artist's conception."

I'm amazed nobody commented on my comment about the GP team trying to put a frame back ON the bike. What about that? Huh? HUH??
There seems to be some vageness about what the GP team is doing. We know they tried an aluminum steering-head structure to replace the carbon-fiber section, which would make it like the 1199. More recently they tried a variation on the twin-beam layout, but specific details are lacking
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:04 AM   #32
The Spaceman
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There seems to be some vageness about what the GP team is doing. We know they tried an aluminum steering-head structure to replace the carbon-fiber section, which would make it like the 1199. More recently they tried a variation on the twin-beam layout, but specific details are lacking
That's pretty close to what I've picked up from following the races:

The temporary fix is the aluminium structure you mentioned for the steering head.

The "real" or longterm fix is to order a twin-beam frame from a non-Ducati source and basically build a new bike with that.


I have to believe that the Ducati engineering team is having conniption fits. If the GP team isn't buying into their frameless design, what message does that send to the world? Sure, some customers are going to buy whatever Ducati pushes out the door. But I'll bet a lot of race teams and individual buyers will have serious doubts about buying into a design that Ducati's own factory GP teams won't endorse. Considering the flap that ensured over just the appearance of the 999, a fight over the basic bike design is a very serious problem.
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:11 PM   #33
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But we did answer questions. We gave bore/stroke and wheelbase dimensions, plus lots more details in the text. And the images we created support the "spy photos" already seen.
Sorry just a pet peeve of mine, supply the spy photos and leave the artists rendering in the artists mind. It annoyed me (past tense as I quit going to that site) on MCN as they are often way off. But if others dig it, who am I to rain on the parade. Just my $.02.
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:28 PM   #34
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Sorry just a pet peeve of mine, supply the spy photos and leave the artists rendering in the artists mind. It annoyed me (past tense as I quit going to that site) on MCN as they are often way off. But if others dig it, who am I to rain on the parade. Just my $.02.
Well, go ahead and drop MCN, as some of their stuff is a lot more fanciful than this. But don't you dare stop coming to MO!
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:12 PM   #35
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That's pretty close to what I've picked up from following the races:

The temporary fix is the aluminium structure you mentioned for the steering head.

The "real" or longterm fix is to order a twin-beam frame from a non-Ducati source and basically build a new bike with that.


I have to believe that the Ducati engineering team is having conniption fits. If the GP team isn't buying into their frameless design, what message does that send to the world? Sure, some customers are going to buy whatever Ducati pushes out the door. But I'll bet a lot of race teams and individual buyers will have serious doubts about buying into a design that Ducati's own factory GP teams won't endorse. Considering the flap that ensured over just the appearance of the 999, a fight over the basic bike design is a very serious problem.
It's certainly a marketing/perception problem, which is huge, but it may not be a performance one for the 1199. The MotoGP bike is a very different animal with different requirements, the Bridgestone tires to name just big one. The Pirellis in WSB behave quite differently. So, it's not as simple as just going back to some sort of steel trellis design, like I hear lots of armchair engineers suggesting. Apparently, they can't make them all consistent enough in regards to stiffness, so that's not an option (that came directly from Preziosi.) Yet the steel trellis still works in Superbike.

The Superbike might work just fine, and I'm betting it'll work more than adequately for street riders/amateurs. I guess we'll know for sure when the bike is released and tested.

Remember that the John Britten (and Vincent before him) used a very similar frameless design and it worked very well, but the bike never raced at the GP level. Again, different requirements.

It seems almost inevitable that Ducati is headed toward a more conventional twin-spar perimeter design for MotoGP. In fact, Rossi may have already tested it at the last session. The rumor was that Hayden would test the "frameless" design with the aluminum front section and the twin-spar version this weekend.

It may be that using the engine as a stressed member has its limitations at the ultra-high spec of MotoGP, but might not have the same consequences elsewhere. Again, we'll see.

Kevin, I like the renderings, at the very least to compare them to the actual bike and see how accurate they are. Based on the spy shots I've seen, yours look pretty close.
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:27 PM   #36
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It's certainly a marketing/perception problem, which is huge, but it may not be a performance one for the 1199. The MotoGP bike is a very different animal with different requirements, the Bridgestone tires to name just big one. The Pirellis in WSB behave quite differently. So, it's not as simple as just going back to some sort of steel trellis design, like I hear lots of armchair engineers suggesting. Apparently, they can't make them all consistent enough in regards to stiffness, so that's not an option (that came directly from Preziosi.) Yet the steel trellis still works in Superbike.

The Superbike might work just fine, and I'm betting it'll work more than adequately for street riders/amateurs. I guess we'll know for sure when the bike is released and tested.

Remember that the John Britten (and Vincent before him) used a very similar frameless design and it worked very well, but the bike never raced at the GP level. Again, different requirements.

It seems almost inevitable that Ducati is headed toward a more conventional twin-spar perimeter design for MotoGP. In fact, Rossi may have already tested it at the last session. The rumor was that Hayden would test the "frameless" design with the aluminum front section and the twin-spar version this weekend.

It may be that using the engine as a stressed member has its limitations at the ultra-high spec of MotoGP, but might not have the same consequences elsewhere. Again, we'll see.

Kevin, I like the renderings, at the very least to compare them to the actual bike and see how accurate they are. Based on the spy shots I've seen, yours look pretty close.
All good points, pdad, and thx for your comments on our renderings.

Additionally, here's an important piece from this article: "Bayliss finished the Mugello test with a best lap of 1:51.3, a full half-second quicker than he went on the 1198."
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:46 PM   #37
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On another subject, I'm amazed that few have commented on the cool renderings we commissioned for this article. I thought they were worth the time and money, but maybe not...
I wasn't going to comment on the renderings but felt cheated not having real pics. Not cheated by MO but Ducati. My first impression was it was some kind of Ducati mind control marketing mechanism. I do appreciate the effort they are making with this bike. What they learn will definately filter across the entire offering. Some of it anyway.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:18 PM   #38
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I wasn't going to comment on the renderings but felt cheated not having real pics. Not cheated by MO but Ducati. My first impression was it was some kind of Ducati mind control marketing mechanism. I do appreciate the effort they are making with this bike. What they learn will definately filter across the entire offering. Some of it anyway.
We'd certainly share real pics if we had 'em! We had learned a whole lot about the 1199, and I wanted to share that info with MO readers. Based on what we learned and the several blurry spy shots we had seen, we came up with we believe is a fairly accurate representation of what the real bike will look like. And hopefully inspire some commentary.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:53 AM   #39
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It's certainly an impressive bike if it ever gets marketed. But in spite of the neat trick thingies on this class of bike they are so unrideable for anyone near or over 6ft that they lose much of their interest. I mean it's an amazing feat of motorcycle technology but basically unuseable. That's true of most race replicas.

I saw a nice ZX9 for sale the other day. If I got the urge for a sportbike, that or maybe a used Daytona955 would be the way I'd have to go. I think the CBR954 was the last RR I could even consider fitting on. This class of bikes has passed a lot of people by.
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Old 10-12-2011, 08:07 AM   #40
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It's certainly an impressive bike if it ever gets marketed. But in spite of the neat trick thingies on this class of bike they are so unrideable for anyone near or over 6ft that they lose much of their interest. I mean it's an amazing feat of motorcycle technology but basically unuseable. That's true of most race replicas.
Agreed. I rode an R1 at Daytona last year, which is supposed to be relatively "moderate" ergonomically. I was so scrunched up and bent out of shape that it ruined the ride. I'm just barely 6' and 180...not THAT big. How the pro riders do it is beyond me. Steroids no doubt.
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