2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R vs. 2011 BMW S1000RR Shootout

[ShamanWS6]

... do what I did instead and buy an ex-pro racebike. Around $10k for this bike with spare bodywork, levers, clip-ons...

http://new.rumour.com/gallery3/var/r...G?m=1296785802

Makes 185whp reliably (and a real 185whp, not some optimistic POS dyno run by a guy who wants to make money on people looking for ego numbers) on U4.4 and will handily out-handle anything you can get off a showroom floor. EMPro gives it traction control, too.

[Duken4evr]

Somebody crapped in YoKev's wheaties...

[Morbo the Destroyer]

Originally Posted by Dr_Sprocket

You know what they say about German engineering... The more I read, the more I'd like to own this BMW. This bike is iconic.

Ken (or Mokester), do you know if MotoGP has a constructor's championship of manufacturer's championship trophy? It'd be interesting to see how the bikes fared on the track as a whole, taking into account all finishes on all the courses. The best bike doesn't always win the race, nor does the best rider.

They do have a constructor's championship, and Yamaha has taken it the past few years. It appears Honda is pulling out all the stops to get it this year, and based on the results at Losai, they're on their way to succeeding.

[Morbo the Destroyer]

Originally Posted by YoKev

You're testing two bikes against each other ON THE TRACK, yet you don't post up your lap times..
The BIGGEST determining factor in which bike is 'better' on the track, IS THE FREAKING LAP TIMES!.
Furthermore, these bikes are expert-class bikes, made for riders with higher than average levels of skill. What that means is the 'envelope' where they're designed to work on the track, is much higher than smaller, less aggressive bikes. This translates to them working their best when ridden by someone who can take them into the aforementioned performance envelope. For anyone who's road raced, it's like the difference of how your bike handles on the warm-up lap compared to how it does at 100%. Or for anyone who's ridden on the track on cold tires waiting for them to get heat into them, remember how the bike worked when the tires were cold compared to when you got heat into them.
By not posting your lap times, you're telling your reader(s) that you aren't skilled enough to ride either of these bikes at the speeds they were designed to be ridden at, and therefore your 'review' is simply a waste of bandwidth. I thought Steve Atlas worked for the same website, but maybe I'm confusing it with another one. If he does work with you, then you should have had HIM ride the bikes. I read his '10 shoot-out, and he also included Chuck Sorenson, and some slow guys for a riding perspective from 'average track-day guy'. Bottom line is, HE POSTED UP THE LAP TIMES, and thus obviously used said data in determining which bike was best ON THE TRACK! We know this to be true because the lap times he did showed that he was riding the bike(s) at the high level pace that they were designed to be ridden at. Conversely by YOU leaving out YOUR lap times, we know that you didn't ride either bike at the level they were designed to be ridden at.
There are plenty of 'fast' club racers here in California, and if you cared even remotely about actually providing USEFUL data in your 'review', you would have contacted any of the local racing orgs or one of the race tire distributors, and get the name of a few guys that could have ridden these bikes how they were designed to be ridden, and ended up with an article that actually gave your reader(ship) ACCURATE information, and a truthful conclusion as to which bike is 'better' on the track.
Instead, you're just two guys with the credentials to get test bikes, and a webmaster that knows how to make an 'e-zine'. You load your resume up with this kind of useless drivel and you'll never get hired by a legitimate, top-tier publication.

Just because you think lap times are so damn important, that doesn't mean anybody else does. Frankly, I could give a **** what Mr. Duke or your track pal's lap times on either bike are. What exactly is that going to tell me? That some rider I never met went faster on bike "A" than bike "B," at that track, on that day, with those tires, in that weather, etc. ad naseum? So what?

I find the article is informative and interesting without lap times, and frankly, I'll bet 99% of the other readers do too. Probably because about 1% of the readers would buy one of these bikes for the track. The vast majority of sportbikes are ridden on the street. We get some common measurements that put the bikes in perspective, and some impressions from writers whom we are familiar with.

Why don't you enlighten us on your credentials, and thus give some legitimacy to your rant? What's your background in motorcycle testing and reporting? Where have you been published? Which bike makers call you when they want to publicize their products?

Oh, wait, I get it...we're supposed to impressed because maybe you know somebody who does track days.

[sarnali2]

Originally Posted by mscuddy

BMW's, oh please. Those interleavened road wheels get mud stuck in 'em, and you're eary prey for a Sherman. What a minute, isn't this tankbattles.com? Oh, sorry....

A Kettenkrad and a few panzerfausts will light that Ami tin can up......

[Kevin_Duke]

Originally Posted by YoKev

You're testing two bikes against each other ON THE TRACK, yet you don't post up your lap times..
The BIGGEST determining factor in which bike is 'better' on the track, IS THE FREAKING LAP TIMES!.

A big answer to a simple question (stolen from our 2009 literbike shootout thread).

First off, we tested on the track because pinning a literbike on the street for more than two gears can get you thrown in jail. And because there's no safe way to explore aggressive lean angles or ultimate braking performance, etc. Testing nearly any limit of a literbike's performance on the street is either silly or dangerous or both. I hope you can understand how you can learn much more about a bike's performance capabilities on a track than you can on the street.

That said, I'd love to include lap times whenever we go to the track. But that creates many other issues.

- Our crew is made up of fairly quick riders. Of the less than 10% of sportbike riders who take their bikes to the track (and presumably many of those are among the most talented street riders in their circle), we belong in the fastest group. However, we're not active racers, so we generally go quicker at the end of the day after we've learned the nuances of the track than at the beginning, meaning that comparing lap times can be unfair for the first bike to go out on timed sessions.

- "Ah, so then you should hire a pro racer," you might say. Well, if you've been around us for awhile, you know we run a lean operation, and finding the budget to bring in a pro can be difficult. Another problem I've had when I've hired a racer is that they often feel most comfortable on the brand of bike they race, perhaps skewing things to a particular OEM. Don't even think about bringing a rider with any sort of serious OEM support.

- And then there's tires. We had three diff tires on our stock bikes, and lap times are affected greatly by incremental differences in grip.

- "So, get Michelin (or whoever) to give you tires like they generously did in your Supersport Shootout so they've got equal footing," one might think. There are a couple of problems with that. First, manufacturers develop their bike (and their steering and handling qualities) on a tire specially developed for the bike. A tire's construction, profile and outside diameter vary greatly between brands, so a new set of rubber might transform a sweet-handling bike into a real handful - or many other similar negative effects.

- And then there's the pole lap. To be fair, the tires have to be in identical conditions before the timed lap. You also have to ensure the rider won't be going quicker because he just finished a quick lap and knew he could go quicker by braking later or taking a diff apex or whatever.

But, most importantly, you need to make sure you have an empty racetrack in front of the rider. If you've been to a trackday, you already know that getting a perfectly clean lap with dozens of others riding around is next to impossible (especially for a pro-level rider). Believe, I've tried.

OEMs who have been at these sessions during trackdays have also noticed that getting clean, precise laps logged while others are on the track is nearly impossible, so they strongly recommend that any magazine that wants to log lap times, they should rent a track for their own private sessions. Have you ever priced literbike-worthy racetracks lately? They ain't cheap - and don't forget the insurance, track personnel and mandatory ambulance...

[Buzglyd]

Originally Posted by Kevin_Duke

A big answer to a simple question (stolen from our 2009 literbike shootout thread).





- "Ah, so then you should hire a pro racer," you might say. Well, if you've been around us for awhile, you know we run a lean operation, and finding the budget to bring in a pro can be difficult.

They ain't cheap - and don't forget the insurance, track personnel and mandatory ambulance...

You ain't kiddin' about the lean operation. I'm even buying my own carne asada burritos.

You're so diplomatic. I would have just told him to shut his damn pie-hole.

Even the former MR ALLCAPS thinks he's obnoxious.

[Kevin_Duke]

Originally Posted by Buzglyd

You ain't kiddin' about the lean operation. I'm even buying my own carne asada burritos.

You're so diplomatic. I would have just told him to shut his damn pie-hole.

Even the former MR ALLCAPS thinks he's obnoxious.

I've got an old stick of beef jerky in my riding jacket so I can provide lunch next time.

[Aussiebikerdave]

IMHO YoKev, you are right on the money and I could not agree more with your comments. I too got to the end and then scrolled back through thinking I must have missed a sidebar piece on lap times etc. Come on guys, your track comparison is totally meaningless and irrelevent on two levels, no lap times and secondly comparing the Kawasaki by your own admission, in its 'hobbled' US spec condition.

If you are doing a road comparo then yes, straight out of the box bikes are probably the way to compare as there will be some road riders, possibly even the majority, who will not tinker with Tuneboy or Power Commander to retrieve the lost horses. However, to compare these bikes in the way that you have with no supporting lap times and with one bike in it's 'artificially' restricted state is akin to sending a boxer into the ring with one arm trussed up behind his back! Doh.

[cloud9]

Seriously there's a lot for harsh criticism about a free and very informative article.

If you want the lap times your asking for watch the next AMA super bike qualifying session if your looking for professional riders on a clear race track with the same tires.