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Old 07-19-2010, 07:21 AM   #51
Voyager
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At some point we will find that burning oil for personal transportation is too expensive and sometime after that we'll not be able to. It will be reserved for more important uses. - Jeff Cobb

Thanks for making that point Jeff. It's one I've made several times here in the past.
Actually he was quoting me.

Never mind...
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Burning it for fuel is like throwing textbooks and fine furniture into the fireplace. Sure it burns, but sure isn't the best use of the material.
Spot on though.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:22 AM   #52
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Our electric power grid is a house of cards as it is, now we're all going to plug our cars in overnight to charge them? Well good luck with that. And those great new long life lithium Ion batteries? require mining, transportation and some horrendously toxic manufacturing process to create.

There's no pie in the sky and there's no free lunch. The same NIMBY dumb ass's that are against nuclear, hydro and coal fired power production are the ones jumping up and down over stuff like this. The vaunted eco-friendly Prius is one of the dirtiest cars ever manufactured in terms of environmental impact, the zero impact offshore wave generators change tidal flow patterns and erode shore lines..

IMO the answer is diesel electric cars. Small single cylinder TDI diesel engines on a governor running a generator powering an electric motor should give an easy 100 mpg and no batteries or drain on an already taxed electrical grid. Of course we'll have to increase strip mining copper production for the motor windings and figure out what to do with the gasoline that's a by product of diesel refining.......

Screw it, we'll go back to horses and buggies for local transport with a commuter electric train grid for high speed access to cities and distances.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:36 AM   #53
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Our electric power grid is a house of cards as it is, now we're all going to plug our cars in overnight to charge them? Well good luck with that.

Screw it, we'll go back to horses and buggies for local transport with a commuter electric train grid for high speed access to cities and distances.
And create hundreds of thousands of new jobs: Horsesh!t Sweepers!

Ever see pics of New York in the "horse and buggy days", with the smooth dirt-streets and nice sidewalks and lamp-posts? Those streets aren't dirt.......

(or watch any movies with Ye Olde Lonedone as the Setting? Those "clean cobblestone streets" are a Fantasy)
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:04 AM   #54
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Nobody was born full-grown. There weren't any gas stations when Damiler-Benz built their first car. The first fax machine was useless. The "internet" was a bunch of system programmers running SNA over VSE on IBM mainframes only 20 years ago.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:12 AM   #55
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Nobody was born full-grown. There weren't any gas stations when Damiler-Benz built their first car. The first fax machine was useless. The "internet" was a bunch of system programmers running SNA over VSE on IBM mainframes only 20 years ago.
But there are a lot of hydrogen stations built in California at taxpayer expense gathering dust. Another multi-billion dollar boondoggle created by politicians and environmental "geniuses" who decided how technology would develop.

The one thing that isn't in short supply is thick-headed arrogance. It would be nice if we could harness that.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:20 AM   #56
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Nobody was born full-grown. There weren't any gas stations when Damiler-Benz built their first car. The first fax machine was useless. The "internet" was a bunch of system programmers running SNA over VSE on IBM mainframes only 20 years ago.
And all that stuff grew and jobs were created without a gov't mandate. That's real job creation not this bullshyt "stimulus" fake job creation.

If you'd like an example of what happens when gov't picks "the future" just see ETHANOL.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
At some point we will find that burning oil for personal transportation is too expensive and sometime after that we'll not be able to. It will be reserved for more important uses. - Jeff Cobb

Thanks for making that point Jeff. It's one I've made several times here in the past.

Hey Ken - As Voyager already pointed out, Voyager said this, and I was quoting it. - Jeff
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:44 AM   #58
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Let's say someone uses one of the e-bikes to commute. You are talking about 300 charge/recharge cycles per year. How many batteries can handle that? Phone batteries and other lithium batteries only provide 300-500 cycles. Seems like a battery will have to be replace each year. Full discharges shorten life. The lithium ions deteriorate and you only have about a two year life anyhow.
The Valence batteries in the Enertia are claimed for 2,000 charge cycles. The new Empulse has "Brammo Power" batteries -of unknown origin at this point - but they are presumably equal to or better than the batteries in the Enertia.

It's true deep discharge kills li-ions batteries. That's why the battery packs are more than mere cells. They must be made with a Battery Management System (BMS) that monitors and controls battery discharge, and stops the party before potentially damaging depletion can occur.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:57 AM   #59
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The Valence batteries in the Enertia are claimed for 2,000 charge cycles. The new Empulse has "Brammo Power" batteries -of unknown origin at this point - but they are presumably equal to or better than the batteries in the Enertia.

It's true deep discharge kills li-ions batteries. That's why the battery packs are more than mere cells. They must be made with a Battery Management System (BMS) that monitors and controls battery discharge, and stops the party before potentially damaging depletion can occur.
Shoulda thought of the safeguard.

2,000 cycles gives about 6 years life for a battery then. Provided one only discharges the car once a day. Not too bad. Better save up $4 per day for a new battery.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:27 AM   #60
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2,000 cycles gives about 6 years life for a battery then. Provided one only discharges the car once a day. Not too bad. Better save up $4 per day for a new battery.
I think you are being a bit pessimistic. If you use the battery vehicle to commute to work that is nearer 8 years. And I don't think 8 years ago LiPo even commercially existed.

18 months ago LiPo batteries were mega money, now they are just pricey. By 2018 the chances are the cost will have dropped somewhat or an alternative will exist.
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