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Old 12-29-2009, 11:08 AM   #121
sarnali2
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Originally Posted by roadhamr View Post
these are all great acheivements for harley. the efi system has been around for 25 years and has been used successfully in everything from cars to atvs before harley started to use it. catalytic converters are a neccesity because of sticking with aor cooling and have been in the automotive world for 25 years at least.brembo brakes, great stuff! made by another company. air suspension has been on bikes for alot of years. old tech for sure. throttle by wire is certainly not new tech either and has been used successfully in bikes for years now by the japanese. 6 speed tranny, no big thing. japanese in the 80's. electronic cruise, again the japanese long time ago. harley has come along way and build a very good product for what it is. there are deficiencies in all designs and harley's typically center around performance issues. there has been improvements and hopefully the victory will push them to take it even further.
discussing any topic sometimes can ruffle feathers but efforts must be made to remove emotions from the discussion and try to deal with facts.

You're clouding the issue. no one said Harley invented any of those things, however you made the statement that Harley was technologically inferiour to Victory and by implication, everyone else. I merely refuted your argument with the facts.

The bottom line is here that I really don't feel the need to defend my choice. My bike does everything I ask it to and more, further I have nothing against Victory as I think they're fine machines. What's odd is your constant need to "prove" that Victory is better, are you insecure about it?
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:32 AM   #122
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The Japanese using pushrod engines in my opinion is to copy Harley. Thats it, its a shame they would even consider it. I will agree with Seruzawa that, that is what the Japanese do. Copy it and make it better.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:33 AM   #123
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these are all great acheivements for harley. the efi system has been around for 25 years and has been used successfully in everything from cars to atvs before harley started to use it. catalytic converters are a neccesity because of sticking with aor cooling and have been in the automotive world for 25 years at least.brembo brakes, great stuff! made by another company. air suspension has been on bikes for alot of years. old tech for sure. throttle by wire is certainly not new tech either and has been used successfully in bikes for years now by the japanese. 6 speed tranny, no big thing. japanese in the 80's. electronic cruise, again the japanese long time ago. harley has come along way and build a very good product for what it is. there are deficiencies in all designs and harley's typically center around performance issues. there has been improvements and hopefully the victory will push them to take it even further.
discussing any topic sometimes can ruffle feathers but efforts must be made to remove emotions from the discussion and try to deal with facts.
EFI's been around since the '50s (although quite primitive) - fuel injection's been with us since nearly the dawn of the internal-combustion engine.

Catalysts have been a Fact of Life since late '72, and have nothing to do with air cooling - my '04 FZ6 has a cat, and it's water-cooled and EFI. Same with the current M.Y. R6 and R1.

Throttle-by-wire has only been with (a few!) production cars about a decade-and-a-half, in production bikes for about a third as long (Harley being a surprise "early adopter" of this).

True, the Japanese adopted 6-speeds in the '80s, but they haven't become "universal" even now - Honda's "new" NT700 Tourer is a 5-speed, for one example.

Just in the interest of full-disclosure here, I'm no real fan of Harley one way or another.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:35 AM   #124
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The Japanese using pushrod engines in my opinion is to copy Harley. Thats it, its a shame they would even consider it. I will agree with Seruzawa that, that is what the Japanese do. Copy it and attempt to make it better.
Fixed that'n for ya!

That said - sometimes they're even successful.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:45 AM   #125
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Is this guy ever going to give up? I know I gave up along time ago trying to convince LR that Harleys suck. We should hold a RACE! Longride against Roadhamr yeah YEAH!
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:22 PM   #126
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:31 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by MOKE1K View Post
The Japanese using pushrod engines in my opinion is to copy Harley. Thats it, its a shame they would even consider it. I will agree with Seruzawa that, that is what the Japanese do. Copy it and make it better.
Well hold on to your horses because OHC has no advantage at all over pushrods in long stroke low rpm engines. OHC only gives an advantage at higher rpms in controlling valve float. GM used pushrods in its latest truck engine series because they work just a well as OHC and the assembly/production costs are less.

Ever heard of Lycoming? They make aircraft engines. They would be very surprised to know just how inferior their engines are because they use pushrods.

Take the V-4 engine configuration. It rules in MotoGP. So, why don't you see them produced commercially? Because they are a lot more expensive to make for a performance advantage that is pretty small compared to an inline engine. This is partially why the Honda VFR costs as much as a Sprint ST. So users go, "Hmmmm. I can have another 250cc and another 30HP for the same money..... duh!"

For that matter the Japanese are hopelessly outdated in their insistence on building inferior I-4s.

This is fun.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:38 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by sarnali2 View Post
You're clouding the issue. no one said Harley invented any of those things, however you made the statement that Harley was technologically inferiour to Victory and by implication, everyone else. I merely refuted your argument with the facts.

The bottom line is here that I really don't feel the need to defend my choice. My bike does everything I ask it to and more, further I have nothing against Victory as I think they're fine machines. What's odd is your constant need to "prove" that Victory is better, are you insecure about it?
The issue of "better" is simply preference anyhow. One could ask "Is Jessica Jane Clement better than Elize du Toit?" It depends on who you ask and there is no right or wrong answer.

It's called "solipsism". Kook was a total solipsism. It means that someone has confused personal belief with objective reality. Just because Victory is best to roadhmmer it dosen't mean that Victory is best for someone else. No one can win such an argument because it is not entirely based on objective criteria.

I knew that philososphy degree would come in handy one day.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:41 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
Well hold on to your horses because OHC has no advantage at all over pushrods in long stroke low rpm engines. OHC only gives an advantage at higher rpms in controlling valve float. GM used pushrods in its latest truck engine series because they work just a well as OHC and the assembly/production costs are less.

Ever heard of Lycoming? They make aircraft engines. They would be very surprised to know just how inferior their engines are because they use pushrods.

Take the V-4 engine configuration. It rules in MotoGP. So, why don't you see them produced commercially? Because they are a lot more expensive to make for a performance advantage that is pretty small compared to an inline engine. This is partially why the Honda VFR costs as much as a Sprint ST. So users go, "Hmmmm. I can have another 250cc and another 30HP for the same money..... duh!"

For that matter the Japanese are hopelessly outdated in their insistence on building inferior I-4s.

This is fun.
Seruzawa Iam not saying one is better than another Iam giving my opinion on why the Japanese used them on the Stratoliner/Roadliner. Better or worse they use it because its a copy-cat Harley. I think they really lower the bar when they copy Harley. I know this isnt the popular opinion here but I perfer the Japanese design.
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Old 12-29-2009, 12:45 PM   #130
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Seruzawa Iam not saying one is better than another Iam giving my opinion on why the Japanese used them on the Stratoliner/Roadliner. Better or worse they use it because its a copy-cat Harley. I think they really lower the bar when they copy Harley. I know this isnt the popular opinion here but I perfer the Japanese design.
Well, if I were to buy a new Cruiser I'd probably get the Victory myself. I really like my friend's V92C. Too bad though that a Tiger is about 1000x's more likely to end up in my garage.

We have these "new" vs "old" slanging matches on MO every once in a while. Makes for good flame battles sometimes. Keeps the wits sharp and such.
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