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Old 12-05-2009, 08:54 AM   #1
sarnali2
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Default Twin Cam Beemers.....

So.....not only are the Japanese copying Harley in styling, now it seems BMW is copying Harleys ground-breaking engineering on the 2010 twins with a new chain driven twin cam set up. Here I was thinking the Jeemans marched to their own drum...looks like they're jumping on the bandwagon just like everyone else......
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:21 AM   #2
Jammin'John
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Wink Huh ?

I get a kick out of that "copying harley" mentality.

For many years while harley was doing their best with paint and chrome to please "the faithful" the japs were building fantastic motors that were very reliable.

They tried to give americans their idea of an american cruiser and the bikes did not sell.

So they asked americans what they wanted and the answer was V-Twins (go figure).

So they are now making fantastic V-Twins and of course "the faithful" take offense at those darn copycats.

A chain driven twin cam setup is hardly "groundbreaking" engineering.

Harley did a very bad job of it with the twin cam 88:

HARLEY TWIN CAM SURVEY REPORT {Motorcycle Consumer News}

The faithful speak

Motorcycle Consumer News March 2004
Over 750 Harley owners returned the survey
Average mileage at time of failure 17,000
30% went over 20,000 miles before failure
Average miles per year 4,000, the lowest average miles per year of any bike they have surveyed, about half of the average Honda owners mileage.

1999 models at time of survey
58.3% had experienced cam bearing failure

The newer models don't seem to be doing any better, there are fewer failures, but that seems to be related to the lower number of total miles on the bike, even the 2004 models are having failures.

27% of owners say they weren't satisfied with the repairs after engine failure.
31% had to pay for part of the repair of the known defect.

Owner satisfaction with Harley dealer service
58% good to excellent
12% fair
10% poor to unacceptable

It is worth noting that after years and years of denial that this problem even existed, while at the same time saying that they had fixed the problem years ago, Harley finally fixed this known defect starting with the 2007 model engines. This problem goes back to the introduction of the EVO engine.

It's rather funny, when the EVO engine came out, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", it wasn't. When Harley introduced the twin cam engine, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", and it wasn't.

Motorcycle Consumer News Quality Rating (Higher numbers are better) Aug 2002 issue
Honda +196
Yamaha +133
Suzuki +61
Kawasaki +34
BMW -27
Harley Davidson -197

JD Power Ratings for motorcycles, Harley has the lowest quality rating of all the major brands. Ratings | J.D. Power

Twin Cam Bearings—Fixed? {downtime files MCN}

Please help me out a little. I know about
the Twin Cam bearing problems with the
Harleys and the apparent reluctance on the
part of Harley-Davidson to remedy the problem.
My question is, are the 2004 Harley-
Davidsons coming off the line with “new
and improved” bearings, or are they susceptible
to the same failure problem? I just
bought a new Road King and assume the
fix was made, but I want to know for sure.
Thanks.
Peter Miller
Divecop@aol.com
Cornwall on Hudson, NY
All new Harley Twin Cam engines are
equipped with the latest style cam bearings,
however, our Twin Cam Owner’s Survey
(MCN, March 2004) revealed that there
could yet be an ongoing problem. The 1999
and 2000-models identified by H-D as being
susceptible to the failure accounted for
approximately three-quarters of the reported
failures in the survey. However, a quarter of
the failures occurred in newer models, and
there were cam bearing failures reported
even in the 2004 models. Also, because the
failures appear to be mileage related—
17,000 miles was average for bearing failure—
and the average Twin Cam was ridden
only 4000 miles/year, if you do the math, we
may well see these figures rise over time.

Twin Cam Bearing Warning Signs
In February, I purchased a H-D Road
King; a week later I got the Motorcycle
Consumer News issue with the H-D Owners’
Survey and the info about the Twin
Cam engines and their cam bearing failure
problems.
What symptoms should I look for, or listen
for, regarding cam bearing failures?
Does this happen suddenly, without warning?
Or are there warning signs I might
catch that might allow me to make it to the
shop before the “grenade” goes off?
Gregory J. Mitro
gmitro@elp.rr.com
What fails in these units are the bearings
that support the cams, so you are listening
for a rubbing, grinding noise. It’s not very
loud and is very hard to hear most of the
time, so that it will often fail without sufficient
warning. If your unit is one of the
affected ones, we suggest a pre-emptive
strike—to replace the bearings before they
fail. It’s a lot easier to just replace them,
rather than to replace them and fix/clean
up the damage after they fail.

All was not rosy in Milwaukee, however. A Consumer Fraud Class Action Suit was filed on behalf of owners of 1999-2000 Harley models with the TC-88 and TC-88B motors. The plaintiffs alleged that the engine's design was defective and potentially dangerous, due to a tendency for premature rear cam-bearing failure. The Wisconsin Court of Appeals supported the plaintiffs' claim that they would not have purchased their motorcycles had they known about the defect. Plaintiffs alleged that Harley-Davidson knew about the defect, and even sells a $500 kit to remedy the problem. According to Bulletin M-1097, the TC-88/88B motor was modified as of December 14, 1999 to correct the cam-bearing problem.

In another lawsuit, riders injured in accidents caused by high speed wobbles have filed claims against the company, alleging inherent stability problems with the FLH series (Electra Glide, Road King and Ultra Classic) supposedly due to a design defect involving an offset between the front and rear tires. A 1999 review in Motorcycle Consumer News described "an oscillation in the chassis that keeps the bike from feeling steady, both while cornering and at elevated speeds." In September, 2002, the company issued a statement saying they are "not aware of any issues with any of our motorcycles at this time."

There is no "bandwagon".

They just want to sell bikes.

Fast,reliable bikes !

What's wrong with that ?



JJ
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:54 AM   #3
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A survey? Heh heh. I wonder how many of those "Harley Owners" were envious losers on worthless Japanese cruisers.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:28 PM   #4
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Oddly enough I meant the post as sarcasm............

I do appreciate your effort though! I would like to point out that HD is hardly alone in having occasional problem areas, nor are they unique in dragging their feet in admiting them. The difference being that they do admit them and generally stand behind their productd as opposed to the competition who will barely acknowledge that they've even heard of motorcycles, let alone that one of their models would have chronic issues.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:34 AM   #5
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Question Huh ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seruzawa View Post
A survey? Heh heh. I wonder how many of those "Harley Owners" were envious losers on worthless Japanese cruisers.

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Old 12-06-2009, 09:29 AM   #6
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"Over 750 Harley owners returned the survey"

So lets see how the numbers stack up. Lets' assume that Harley sold at least 200,000 units from 1999 to 2004. The survey had 750 respondents out of a possible 1,200,000 owners. That would be a sampling of .0625% of supposed Harley owners. Plus, since no controls were used to see if the people that responded actually had any of the trouble they reported, or even actually owned a Harley, the numbers and claims are as meaningless as the are worthless. All I would need are a few friends and an agenda to skew any type of 'survey' like this.

It's rather funny, when the EVO engine came out, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", it wasn't. When Harley introduced the twin cam engine, Willie G went on TV and said: "We finally have a true 100,000 mile engine", and it wasn't.

The funny part is that both engine types had many that went over 100,000 without a rebuild sp I guess he was right.

You just sound like another envious clone owner that can't justify why he owns a Harley clone. Don't worry, nobody else can justify it either.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:59 AM   #7
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Wink Mean

"You just sound like another envious clone owner that can't justify why he owns a Harley clone."

Envy is not the deal sir.
If I wanted a hardley I would buy one.

It just burns my ass how you & others trash every bike that isn't a hardley.
I just put the info out there because I get sick of all the hardley praise and the trashing of every other ride.

If you are one of the "faithful" that's great.

I know it's a religion and like Any RELIGION when people talk about it or about POLITICS the tempers flare.

I only trashed your ride because I get sick of the BS that comes out of you and some others mouths.

I'm not going to argue about this because it's pointless to argue with "the faithful".

I THOUGHT that this board was about RIDING motorcycles.

To some of you it's more about OWNING a lifestyle.

If this information from an UNBIASED motorcycle rag makes you uncomfortable I'm very sorry.

Ride safe & often.

JJ
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:15 AM   #8
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I use to make fun of Harleys until I got a job breaking 'em in for a rental place in Compton.

One time I had the nice blue Heritage Special flat tracking around El Mirage dry lake, and then I took it trail riding up a snotty sandwash. Since I couldn't get it turned around I just kept going on this sandwash until it turned into single-track up over a pass by Shadow Mountain.

When I got to the top with the filthy Heritage with bushes sticking out of the bags and forks, etc. a bunch or dirt bikers were astounded, nay flummoxed to see a full bagger chug over a rocky single track.

Anyway when I got the bike back to Moturis in Compton I snuck it in the garage and quickly fired up the old KZ750 to make a hasty exit before the German machanic found his filthy Heritage and went ape. Too late, the guy cornered me and made me wash it.

Harleys are cool, 1/5th of a radial air cooled aircraft engine. Why do you think they've been around so long?
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammin'John View Post
"You just sound like another envious clone owner that can't justify why he owns a Harley clone."

Envy is not the deal sir.
If I wanted a hardley I would buy one.

It just burns my ass how you & others trash every bike that isn't a hardley.
I just put the info out there because I get sick of all the hardley praise and the trashing of every other ride.

If you are one of the "faithful" that's great.

I know it's a religion and like Any RELIGION when people talk about it or about POLITICS the tempers flare.

I only trashed your ride because I get sick of the BS that comes out of you and some others mouths.

I'm not going to argue about this because it's pointless to argue with "the faithful".

I THOUGHT that this board was about RIDING motorcycles.

To some of you it's more about OWNING a lifestyle.

If this information from an UNBIASED motorcycle rag makes you uncomfortable I'm very sorry.

Ride safe & often.

JJ

Well, since none of us actually trash every bike except Harley and we mostly own Japanese bikes in addition to any Harleys I think you need to calm down and pay attention instead of running around half-****ed making wild accusations. Calling a bike a copy isn't actually trashing it. Although it is as fun to tweak the Japanese faithful as it is the Harley or BMW faithful I admit. Speaking of trashing I've been with sportbike groups before and those guys are the worst for trashing every bike in the world except theirs. Harley guys in a group don't tend to talk about others' rides at all. Many of them own Japanese bikes as well. In fact the last time I ran into a group of Harley guys while I was out riding they were asking me how I liked my ZRX and one said he was interested in picking one up. Pretty funny behavior for those evil Harley bigots.

The only motorcycles that ever stranded me were Japanese and Italian. I've never been stranded on a Harley. Honda has the honor of the most strandings even though of my 1/2 million mile riding history about half of that was Kawasakis. By my experience Hondas are the worst of the Japanese bikes and worse than Harley. So I have a choice of believing an unscientific survey or the evidence of my real life experience. Real life wins every time.

I don't know why you care about this anyhow. If you don't like Harleys that's fine. Don't associate with them. It's nothing to get all bent out of shape about.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:09 AM   #10
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Few people realize that Mini-Me is a Dr. Evil clone.

Interestingly enough, if you go back and read the posts, A Star Ride showed up with the Japanese Cruiser Is Better chip already on his shoulder. I noticed it in his posts right from the start, but didn't bother making a point of it since he seemed to have enough other interesting stuff to say to offset it.

I've noticed this "Japanese is Better" chip for years; it's as obvious and annoying as the "I'm cool because I bought a Harley" shoulder chip. Hey Stupid, buying a product doesn't make you anything more or less that what you were 10 seconds before you bought it...except perhaps poorer.

Even within the comparatively tiny US VStrom community, there is a "My 650 Wee Strom is better than your overpowered 1000 Vee" chip. It's absurd.

Anyone who seeks validation via the motorcycle they ride, the car they drive, the house they own...etc. needs to take a look at their life and figure out what's really important. I'll bet Cuddy would be damned happy to ride ANY bike at all.
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