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longride 01-29-2009 12:15 PM

Fix a brother up there MOKE. I'm in!

MOKE1K 01-29-2009 12:20 PM


Kenneth_Moore 01-29-2009 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by longride (Post 202855)
I didn't ask Pete to explain anything. I asked you that if ABS requires just as much skill to operate, then how can someone with no skill and ABS outbrake someone with highly developed skill and a standard brake system? I guess the only straight answer I will get is to answer it for you. It's because ABS REQUIRES LESS SKILL than a comparable standard brake setup. There is NO SKILL to operate ABS to maximum efficiency, other than squeezing the brake as hard as possible. The braking skill is now with a computer. So in conclusion, ABS takes skill away from a skilled activity. Just admit it takes lack of skill to operate ABS. You can do it. I took this from Pete's article, since you are rating it highly:

"Skeptical of a computer doing all the thinking for you?"

I am, and I always will be.

You do realize the previous posts can still be viewed even though they're not on the same page as this one, right?

I never said ABS takes skill to operate. Of course it doesn't, that's the whole point! I said that your premise that somehow choosing to have a tool like ABS available requires (your word) that you have less skill is completely wrong. That's absurd. A carpenter that picks up a power drill instead of a brace and bit is no less skilled, he just drills the hole faster.

BTW, Mokester: when Skip Barber wants to train drivers on threshold braking, they just pull the fuse for the system. Same for dual-sport riders, they disable it via the fuse (some bikes even have an off-on switch) when they go offroad, and put it back on when they get back in the real world. The one with cell phones, trucks, oily roads, and Q-Tips.

The_AirHawk 01-29-2009 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by MOKE1K (Post 202875)
Beides computers break down, what happens at that point? Since you have no real world lessons on braking, you'll be screwed.

That, or you can fork-over the sum-total-worth of three or four of these bikes (in a few years) to replace the computer...........

longride 01-29-2009 12:42 PM

"I never said ABS takes skill to operate. Of course it doesn't, that's the whole point!"

I agree. It requires zero skill to operate.

"I said that your premise that somehow choosing to have a tool like ABS available requires (your word) that you have less skill is completely wrong. That's absurd."

So now it requires a large amount of skill, when one sentence earlier it just took none?? Now THAT is absurd!

sarnali2 01-29-2009 12:50 PM

The brakes will still work without the ABS computer unless you have a power assist like the earlier BMW designs, in which case you have to revert to the Fred Flintstone method.

Harley ABS is an independent non-linked none power assisted design that just becomes standard Brembo's with out the ABS. I don't know how Honda's sytem works but I'm sure it's overly complicated.

MOKE1K 01-29-2009 04:40 PM

[quote=seruzawa;202789]I doubt that our friend MOKE spends much time practicing threshold braking in the wet. ABS is tailor made especially for wet environments.[quote]

SERUZAWA? WAKE UP, Changing your tires five minutes before role-call to the grid because of rain is a common practice here in Fl. and everywhere else I'v raced at the club-level.

Didnt you say you were supposed to have road raced years ago, before Viet Nam? Correct me if Iam wrong but I believe they practiced the same rules and reg's back in the day. Racing in the rain?

Threshold (or whatever you guys call it) braking must be some kind of car terminology cause this is the first time I'v heard that. Racing in the rain and trail braking into a corner in the rain is one of the hardest things to do, and do well. Racing in the rain will teach you this, and if your not a quick study, you'll be on your butt even quicker. You must provide the softest, yet quickest feel on the lever without compromising grip to the front tire.

Has anyone here ever lost the front tire not due to a collision but sheer loss of grip? In Roadracing your constantly at the edge of traction and feeling what the tires are telling you, whether it's at 75%, 85%,or 99% of its remaining contact and/or grip.

This is only one of the reasons(braking manually) that LR and I do not agree on about the track taking more skill than the street. On the track (if your close to the lap rec's)you are at the edge, from the the first time your tire hits the tarmack to the sec you cross the finish line.Just my opinion though.No disrespect!

And Seruzawa for your information I used to practice riding in Manoa Vally on tantaluis(Oahu,Hawaii)a local hot spot mountain road that rained almost everyday. The main reason I loved to practice alot up their was not to go fast, but to ride as smooth as possible. From changing lines, too getting on the throttle, and yes braking. Better to not stereo-type everyone cause one day you might met someone that makes you look really stupid, in person. Just sayin?

seruzawa 01-29-2009 06:45 PM

Jeez. All that for one little comment. (heh heh).

I used to do it in California. It never rains. The tires were something to behold anyhow. There weren't rain tires per se. In fact there really wasn't much in the way of racing tires at all. I don't think that tires that bad have been available for years. Even cheap Cheng Shens are better.

It's all moot anyhow. In a few years ABS will be mandated on all streetbikes. We better get used to it.

MOKE1K 01-29-2009 07:09 PM

No problem seruzawa.

The tire technology would simple amaze you at full lean on one of todays 600's. Although my service manager used to roadrace and flat track and was quite the popular, here in Florida back in the seventies.(Jay Livingston?) The walls are littered with his old pictures "layin it in there" on small arse tires? I'v asked him before how they used to lean the bike's with such small tires, and he always replies the same, you gotta break the tire lose and pitch it in their sidways"...and stay on the gas, hard!

Kevin_Duke 01-29-2009 09:18 PM


Originally Posted by MOKE1K (Post 202917)

Has anyone here ever lost the front tire not due to a collision but sheer loss of grip?

Yep, and I didn't much care for it. It wasn't so good the second time, either. The third time was okay, but I still don't recommend it...

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