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Old 01-29-2009, 08:28 AM   #41
longride
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"Ditto...Having ABS doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't practice braking anymore, the difference is that if you go over the line the ABS kicks in instead of locking up."

What braking skills would you be practicing, and why? Using anything other pulling the lever to the bar and mashing the rear brake pedal as hard as you can defeats the reason you have ABS in the first place. I guess that is what you would practice. Hammer the breaks and let the ABS do the rest. If there is a different method, please explain it to me. I rode the new FL with the ABS and found it annoying because it kicked in when it didn't need to when cornering hard, and pulsed the lever destroying any feel you had going in. I didn't feel any safer. I didn't like it, and would never buy one with it. If people like it, great. I'm not one of them. To me safety isn't bought or worn, it lies between your ears and the end of your fingers. I guess I'm just one of those nostalgic macho morons. I'm comfortable with that.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:38 AM   #42
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If you were really that smart, you wouldn't ride a motorcycle at all. Cars are much safer. I didn't know skilled braking was a 'nostalgic, macho thing'. I guess I learn something new every day from you. Like I said, get the training wheel option so you don't fall down. All in the name of 'progress' you know. Us 'nostalgic macho guys' won't be getting the new training wheel option though.
Given this perspective, I'm surprised you don't type your posts and mail them in. Do you think using seat belts means you've decided not to drive well? If you don't like technology in your motorcycles, that's fine. I'm looking forward to restoring a two stroke with drum brakes myself. But when I'm commuting down I-95 in heavy traffic I won't be on the old bike. It's funny...you beat the crap out of Sachi for suggesting riding in icy conditions, yet you equate ABS to training wheels. Even a fairly inexperienced rider could outbrake you and 90% of the rest of the riding world on this Honda with ABS versus the same bike without.
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Old 01-29-2009, 08:54 AM   #43
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"Do you think using seat belts means you've decided not to drive well?"

Well, if you can tell me what seat belts have to do with driving skills, I'd give you an argument. Since the analogy is pointless, need I go further? I say no.


"It's funny...you beat the crap out of Sachi for suggesting riding in icy conditions, yet you equate ABS to training wheels."

I guess you are full of analogies that have NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. What does riding in ice and snow in traffic have to do with ABS? Well, nothing says I. Maybe if you actually read and comprehended WHY I said not to ride in ice and snow in a city environment, you wouldn't bring it into this conversation. Reading is fun-da-mental. So is com-pre-hen-sion. I equate it with training wheels because if there were electronic training wheels that keep you from falling down, would it not be safer? Would you not get it because of that? If not, why?

"Even a fairly inexperienced rider could outbrake you and 90% of the rest of the riding world...."

Great. Since that 'inexperienced rider' never learned how to brake correctly, he probably never learned how to turn correctly either, or bother learning about road hazards, traffic, throttle control and all the rest. All are skills that must be practiced for thousands of hours, and have skilled instructors teach. Sounds like work to me, so I guess they will skip those too. If proper braking technique is too much of a chore to learn, take up XBOX gaming, all the thrills and spills without any of the skills.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:30 AM   #44
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The alternative to ABS is threshold braking. Learning threshold braking takes countless hours of dedicated practice, starting with a skilled instructor teaching you the technique. Let's say you become proficient at it. How many more hours of dedicated, focused practice will it take for a rider to actually use the technique in an emergency braking situation? You aren't thinking when the F100 left turns in front of you...it has to be pure muscle memory.
I thought learning how to brake no matter what you call it was the whole point behind learning to ride and survive.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:33 AM   #45
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If proper braking technique is too much of a chore to learn, take up XBOX gaming, all the thrills and spills without any of the skills.
The analogies are perfectly relevant. You can't argue for safety on one hand and then reject a meaningful safety technology on the other because it doesn't appeal to you personally. Choosing to utilize modern technology in motorcycling doesn't mean a rider has chosen to stop learning or improving their riding skills. Motorcycles, like most technologies, have followed a path of incremental improvements; from disk brakes to radial tires. ABS is just another tool to use.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:12 AM   #46
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"The analogies are perfectly relevant."

No they aren't. Seat belts have NOTHING to do with how you drive a car. ABS has EVERYTHING to do with how you brake a motorcycle. Just to clear you up on this, seatbelts would be compared to helmets, not ABS. Get it?

"You can't argue for safety on one hand and then reject a meaningful safety technology on the other because it doesn't appeal to you personally."

I guess you STILL didn't read and comprehend anything. You don't ride on snow and ice because it doesn't matter what YOU can do, it only matters what THEY can do, get it? Much like ABS, your skill doesn't matter! Am I clear on that one? I never argued safety. EVER. I argued stupidity. Putting your life in danger isn't smart when your skill level will have nothing to do with the outcome! Sheesh. Get it yet?

"Motorcycles, like most technologies, have followed a path of incremental improvements; from disk brakes to radial tires."

And not ONE of those technologies took a skill AWAY from the rider.

"ABS is just another tool to use."

Any tool that requires you to have less skill than you previously had isn't a tool any more. It's a crutch.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:35 AM   #47
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"Any tool that requires you to have less skill than you previously had isn't a tool any more. It's a crutch.
And therein lies the complete fallacy of your arguments. You insist that having a tool like ABS requires you to have less skill. It doesn't.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:56 AM   #48
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And therein lies the complete fallacy of your arguments. You insist that having a tool like ABS requires you to have less skill. It doesn't.
So then explain how an inexperienced rider could out-brake me and 90% of the other riders on the planet. This should be good!
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:36 AM   #49
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So then explain how an inexperienced rider could out-brake me and 90% of the other riders on the planet. This should be good!
Pete's article (the one this thread is linked to) gives an excellent tutorial on why a fairly inexperienced rider with ABS can outbrake 90% of other riders without ABS, but if you're still unclear on how it works and why it has been implemented on everything from the Space Shuttle to scooters, here's a link that might help:

ttp://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/anti-lock-brake.htm

Don't forget to put the "h" at the front of the link!
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Pete's article (the one this thread is linked to) gives an excellent tutorial on why a fairly inexperienced rider with ABS can outbrake 90% of other riders without ABS, but if you're still unclear on how it works and why it has been implemented on everything from the Space Shuttle to scooters, here's a link that might help:

ttp://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/anti-lock-brake.htm

Don't forget to put the "h" at the front of the link!
Don't slow down guys, I just popped a fresh bowl.
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