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longride 08-10-2007 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 167407)
I already do, every time I pay taxes. And I don't have a problem with that, because I'd prefer not to live in a nation filled with poverty, disease, and dispair.

You are right. You'd rather live in a nation filled with the lazy, inept, and wasteful. One will surely lead to the other. More takers every day and no amount of money thrown at the problem will fix that.

ejis 08-10-2007 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acecycleins (Post 167395)
Natural Disater is not an excuse for "sponging" tax payer money. More waist happend with that (Katrina) than any other disaster (9-11 included) in US history. As for the family referrence: If Dad (or Mom) is a dumb ass, uneducated or will only work a part time job- it is all still no excuse for abuse. You always have a fall-back plan. The system should only be there for temporary help. That's it. It's not my job or anyone elses to make sure tax payer money helps people for extended amounts of time. Katrina victims should have bucked up and started over. They whined instead. If this same Hurricane happened in the '30s people would have picked up and moved on. We (compassionate people) decided to let our gov't throw millions of tax-payer monies at this situation and it was abused. Do Floridians do this- not on that scale (ask Kenneth Moore, he's from there). Step-up, help yourself or loose out. That cut and dry. Sorry this all sounds so mean but after 10yrs (before my insurance career) of being a bail bondsman and bounty hunter (no- it's not like DOG) you take no on compassion for the truly inept. I had to deal with ignorance for too long in that job. We're surrounded by the un/under-educated (thank gov't schools) and they think we owe them- SCREW THEM. Make your own way or get out of the way.

I agree that people shouldn't be on the taxpayers' teet for long periods of time. But why shouldn't the government and citizenry help those who have fallen become contributing members of society again? This isn't the 30's, and why should we have to live like it is? Just because our ancestors were able to live in caves, hunt, forage and live without On Demand doesn't mean we should now.

Again, I don't think the system as it stands now is anywhere near perfect. That doesn't mean that the idea of it isn't valid or that it should be eliminated.

Oh, and wear your helmet...

Kenneth_Moore 08-10-2007 10:38 AM

Spend a few years in a Third World country and get back to me. You can find what you're looking for in much of the Middle East, almost all of Africa, and a good percentage of South and Central America. If living in a civilized society means a small (and it IS small) percentage of my taxes go to the undeserving, it's a fair trade as far as I'm concerned.

longride 08-10-2007 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 167425)
Spend a few years in a Third World country and get back to me. You can find what you're looking for in much of the Middle East, almost all of Africa, and a good percentage of South and Central America. If living in a civilized society means a small (and it IS small) percentage of my taxes go to the undeserving, it's a fair trade as far as I'm concerned.

So as long as a small percentage of your taxes go to the undeserving, you can sleep well at night. How about I opt out and you pay my share too. You seem like a really nice guy, and I think you are up to the task. Since I worked in a Gov organization for 17 years, I know exactly how much of your tax money is wasted. I guess since you don't know, it doesn't bother you. I suppose until the tax bill gets high enough, or the undeserving come in ever greater numbers (and they are) only then will it bother you. Of course, by then, it will be waaaaay to late to stop the train. Lets keep the handouts rolling along until we all go broke. Third World is alot closer then you think.

Kenneth_Moore 08-10-2007 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longride (Post 167432)
So as long as a small percentage of your taxes go to the undeserving, you can sleep well at night. How about I opt out and you pay my share too. You seem like a really nice guy, and I think you are up to the task. Since I worked in a Gov organization for 17 years, I know exactly how much of your tax money is wasted. I guess since you don't know, it doesn't bother you. I suppose until the tax bill gets high enough, or the undeserving come in ever greater numbers (and they are) only then will it bother you. Of course, by then, it will be waaaaay to late to stop the train. Lets keep the handouts rolling along until we all go broke. Third World is alot closer then you think.

I worked for two government organizations, NASA at KSC/Cape Canaveral. (contractor) and the local School Board. Yes, there's a lot of waste, especially in the DOD sector. Does that mean government is useless? I think not.

If you want to opt out, go ahead. I think you'll find the "Life of Riley" you seem to think living on the government dole is, really isn't that much fun after all. Even the UK, which is an extreme example of "government coddling" is a far better choice for me than Africa, where if you don't have a job or family support, your kids go hungry or die from disease.

acecycleins 08-10-2007 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejis (Post 167420)
I agree that people shouldn't be on the taxpayers' teet for long periods of time. But why shouldn't the government and citizenry help those who have fallen become contributing members of society again? This isn't the 30's, and why should we have to live like it is? Just because our ancestors were able to live in caves, hunt, forage and live without On Demand doesn't mean we should now.

Again, I don't think the system as it stands now is anywhere near perfect. That doesn't mean that the idea of it isn't valid or that it should be eliminated.

Oh, and wear your helmet...

Why Should We! Marx said "From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs" para-phrased, of course. In the 30's the Feds created dependency when they created the welfare state. It's decades later and it's worse now than then. Social programs hurt people because many (not all) are too lazy or unmotivated to take care of themselves. Our Imperial Federal Gov't WILL become the Socialist United States when the Dems take control of the Presidency. Our (Union run) Educational systems DEPEND on ignorance and they keep our kids "dull" to keep them from asking questions. Welfare scum vote for those that sign the checks because they don't want to "Live Free" and Dems want Illegal Aliens (no pc intended) to vote because they- Dems- figure that's just more votes for them. Our system of gov't is broken and no one has the balls to fix it. Patch here, patch there- nevermind the ship is still sinking....
So, do real tax paying citizens get tired of this system? Apparently not. If Men of today were half the men that their Grandfather's were we'd already have the problem fixed. But our PC world and the fact that Liberals think we should all be as proper as the French have us in a position of being a bunch of girly-men. It's no wonder we're still fighting in the Middle East. They know we don't have the balls to get the job done. We're not allowed to drop bombs at will and make them quit. Our system of Elected Republic (remember, our founders did not set up a democracy) is on the way out and our children and the generations after are in big trouble.
It's tough to say but thoughts like yours are what cause problems. Singularly it's harmless but as we add thousands with similar thoughts our compassion for humanity is our down fall. We live in a brutal world- why hide it?

Kenneth_Moore 08-10-2007 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acecycleins (Post 167447)
Why Should We! Marx said "From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs" para-phrased, of course. In the 30's the Feds created dependency when they created the welfare state. It's decades later and it's worse now than then. Social programs hurt people because many (not all) are too lazy or unmotivated to take care of themselves. Our Imperial Federal Gov't WILL become the Socialist United States when the Dems take control of the Presidency. Our (Union run) Educational systems DEPEND on ignorance and they keep our kids "dull" to keep them from asking questions. Welfare scum vote for those that sign the checks because they don't want to "Live Free" and Dems want Illegal Aliens (no pc intended) to vote because they- Dems- figure that's just more votes for them. Our system of gov't is broken and no one has the balls to fix it. Patch here, patch there- nevermind the ship is still sinking....
So, do real tax paying citizens get tired of this system? Apparently not. If Men of today were half the men that their Grandfather's were we'd already have the problem fixed. But our PC world and the fact that Liberals think we should all be as proper as the French have us in a position of being a bunch of girly-men. It's no wonder we're still fighting in the Middle East. They know we don't have the balls to get the job done. We're not allowed to drop bombs at will and make them quit. Our system of Elected Republic (remember, our founders did not set up a democracy) is on the way out and our children and the generations after are in big trouble.
It's tough to say but thoughts like yours are what cause problems. Singularly it's harmless but as we add thousands with similar thoughts our compassion for humanity is our down fall. We live in a brutal world- why hide it?

And therein lies the difference. I think the vast majority of people are better off today than at any time in America's history. You said it yourself: you got motivated and you were able to build a terrific life for yourself! Did you know people were starving to death in the 30's when Roosevelt started the New Deal?

longride 08-10-2007 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 167443)
I worked for two government organizations, NASA at KSC/Cape Canaveral. (contractor) and the local School Board. Yes, there's a lot of waste, especially in the DOD sector. Does that mean government is useless? I think not.

If you want to opt out, go ahead. I think you'll find the "Life of Riley" you seem to think living on the government dole is, really isn't that much fun after all. Even the UK, which is an extreme example of "government coddling" is a far better choice for me than Africa, where if you don't have a job or family support, your kids go hungry or die from disease.

I have a feeling if you play it right, it works just fine. I know at least 3 people I grew up with that never had a job in their life, but somehow always had plenty of food, housing, and money to smoke cigs and get drunk every night. I'm seriously thinking of trying it. When I look at my TOTAL tax bill, I'd say I'm not keeping all that much that I'm working for anyway. Africa would do just fine if tightwads like you would pay more money so we could subsidize their living standards. All they need is more money, right? :wink:

longride 08-10-2007 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 167448)
And therein lies the difference. I think the vast majority of people are better off today than at any time in America's history. You said it yourself: you got motivated and you were able to build a terrific life for yourself! Did you know people were starving to death in the 30's when Roosevelt started the New Deal?

That is the whole point of Capitalism. There are winners and losers. Today, we all have to pay for the losers. It won't work forever. The losers are going to outnumber the payers by the thousands. So when the well runs dry, what then?

acecycleins 08-10-2007 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore (Post 167448)
And therein lies the difference. I think the vast majority of people are better off today than at any time in America's history. You said it yourself: you got motivated and you were able to build a terrific life for yourself! Did you know people were starving to death in the 30's when Roosevelt started the New Deal?

Yes- are there more or less people starving now? The New Deal was born from the depression but that's not what got us out of the Depression. It was WWII that got us out. Our ability to manufacture war items helped make people make money. My Grandfather was an auto industry executive with FORD back in the late 20's early 30's. When the war came to America he started his own supply company for the US Gov't to supply them with tank and airplane cast parts. He became very rich in a period that was not. He did not rely on the NEW DEAL to bail him out. He got educated and learned from Henry Ford how to make a busniess work. It's our own fault we are in this situation. Those that think our elective system is rigged don't vote (which consist of nearly half the country). Those that do vote keep the same slags in office no matter the performance. If they were heads of Industry they'd be fired for their performance. Just something to chew on.


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