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Old 02-16-2010, 07:26 PM   #41
A Star Ride
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lol, I'm sure my daughter was quicker at getting it out from under there then the 60 yr old that stashed it. By time he knew someone was coming in, I don't think he coulda gotten down on the floor & fished it out in time anyway.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:36 PM   #42
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Thanks for your reply but I said the KID (it could be your child, a guest or a neighbor) that took the gun. Do you not feel the gun owner that diddn't properly secure it is at least partly to blame for leaving it out? Then theres also the argument that a "properly secured" weapon isnt available when needed, and I agree with that too.
The situation I mentioned earlier when my daughter pulled a shotgun from under a sofa at a friends parents home, the possabilities are endless that could've happened, glad none did. They were an older couple, empty nesters who felt they needed a gun in the home for personal protection & never thought they would have a 2 yr old crawling arround under furniture. Innocent oversight, glad noone died that day.
Morally responsible maybe but not legally. Do you want to stretch law that far? It's a two edged sword and I can guarantee that that principle could be used to say, make you responsible for a fatal drug overdose that an addict bought with money he stole from you. Or hold you responsible for the murder of a teller at a bank that robbers used the car they stole from you to carry out.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:48 AM   #43
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My daughter when 2 years old pulled a loaded shotgun from under a sofa at a friends parents house, they forgot it was there.

A friend had a handgun of some sort in holster with safety on on his dresser, his roommates girlfriend took it out & accidently shot it through the floor into the apartment below.

My father in law shot in his own home with his own gun, stored it unloaded in nightstand with bullets in dresser across the room.

My step mothers first husband shot himself in the head.

A friend after hunting & unloading his junk onto the sofa accidently shot a round through a picture window, he thought it was unloaded.

Another friend after shooting for the afternoon & getting ready to clean his pistol shot his television set. Thought it was unloaded.

When I was 12 a classmate of mine shot another classmate with his dads gun for not getting out of his yard (he didn't die).
Most all of these examples illustrate the point that we (America) need to do a better job teaching firearm safety. Up in Canada, young children handle guns and there are far fewer examples of misuse (kids shooting other kids accidentally). Perhaps the adults keep the firearms secure. More likely, in other countries, children are taught to responsibly handle firearms.

Ultimately, we all are responsible for ourselves and our family. LR is doing what he thinks best for himself and his family. ASR, you are too. No bigs. You guys are both on the same side, you just don't know it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:23 AM   #44
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I do feel me & him are on the same side that we have the right to own guns, and as I said earlier, we all have rights, several I chose not to exercise. In my personal experiences as previously outlined I'm convienced that in my living situation a gun in the home (if available for immediate defense) would more likely contribute to an accident then be used in defending anything, simply because that need isnt here. I don't fear an intruder, I do fear irresponsible ownership (even by my own actions). If I had a gun, it likely would be in a lock box unloaded on the top shelf in a closet unless I planed to go sport shooting, which I've never done but think would be fun if provided the time & money to do.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:29 AM   #45
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I'll add that no better then I know LR, he lives in Chicago, and worked fire (and posably rescue) and likely has encountered situations that I couldnt fathom in my small mountain town in central Va, working in sales. Different lifestyles and different life experiences have formed our views. And I have no beef with anyone over this, I like that we have this freedom, and have enjoyed the views on it that were shared. I cant fault anyone for wanting to own/carry a gun at all.
My local high school the students until 2 years ago were allowed rifles in their vehicles during hunting season, and school was also optional with parents concent and a-b honor roll.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:48 AM   #46
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Why are you such a target? And are you NOT a victim if you shoot an intruder? I said I'm glad we have the freedom to own guns and asked you a reasonable question about gun ownership & liability, which you refused to answer.

My personal experiences which you refuse to accept as FACT, these are things that actually have happened in my life, not things that go through my paranoid mind like a crime drama & being tied up to watch my family get raped (which I'm sure you insist happens nightly but the media isnt allowed to report real news).

My daughter when 2 years old pulled a loaded shotgun from under a sofa at a friends parents house, they forgot it was there.

A friend had a handgun of some sort in holster with safety on on his dresser, his roommates girlfriend took it out & accidently shot it through the floor into the apartment below.

My father in law shot in his own home with his own gun, stored it unloaded in nightstand with bullets in dresser across the room.

My step mothers first husband shot himself in the head.

A friend after hunting & unloading his junk onto the sofa accidently shot a round through a picture window, he thought it was unloaded.

Another friend after shooting for the afternoon & getting ready to clean his pistol shot his television set. Thought it was unloaded.

When I was 12 a classmate of mine shot another classmate with his dads gun for not getting out of his yard (he didn't die).

How many people do you know that were tied up & had to watch their family get raped, or do they all own guns & were able to prevent the situation.

As I said 10:1 accidents happen a lot more then you'll ever get to be the hero that happened to have a gun handy at the right time. I don't fault you for owning one. So do you accept these personal experiences in my own life as fact that these things really do happen? Or do you think that the people that I know who own guns are dumber then the people you know that own guns. If thats the case, maybe Va needs IL gun laws.

So you know a bunch of people that 'thought it was unloaded' and 'forgot it was there' and hell, did they forget they forget to breathe too? PLEASE! I want to know why somone would shoot through a window with a supposedly unloaded gun. Why would you pull the trigger at all unless you were planning to shoot something? If I was you, I'd get a new set of friends and family that actually have something called BRAINS. There are no accidental shootings. There are only stupid people that don't know the first thing about gun safety or gun handling. I've personally been shot at twice and had guns drawn on me twice, so I'd say my PERSONAL experience outweighs your ancedotes. My wife's cousin was just executed by robbers in his store last year. They made him kneel facing the wall, and then blew his brains out. That might be the way you will go, but it won't be me. The 10:1 accidents is also a number you pulled out of your ass by not knowing anything about what you are talking about. Maybe it's 10:1 in your family, but maybe the collective IQ needs to be over 50 to count. By the way, I know plenty of people that were robbed and beaten at gunpoint. I know the ones doing the robbing and the beating.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:10 AM   #47
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So you know a bunch of people that 'thought it was unloaded' and 'forgot it was there' and hell, did they forget they forget to breathe too? PLEASE! I want to know why somone would shoot through a window with a supposedly unloaded gun. Why would you pull the trigger at all unless you were planning to shoot something? If I was you, I'd get a new set of friends and family that actually have something called BRAINS. There are no accidental shootings. There are only stupid people that don't know the first thing about gun safety or gun handling. I've personally been shot at twice and had guns drawn on me twice, so I'd say my PERSONAL experience outweighs your ancedotes. My wife's cousin was just executed by robbers in his store last year. They made him kneel facing the wall, and then blew his brains out. That might be the way you will go, but it won't be me. The 10:1 accidents is also a number you pulled out of your ass by not knowing anything about what you are talking about. Maybe it's 10:1 in your family, but maybe the collective IQ needs to be over 50 to count. By the way, I know plenty of people that were robbed and beaten at gunpoint. I know the ones doing the robbing and the beating.
BTW. Those "10:1" figures were actually "30:1" and they were invented out of thin air by a doctor who worked for the CDC. He admitted later that he simply made up the figures to try to influence legislators.

There should be criminal penalties for "scientists" who falsify data for that purpose. Is it not a form of fraud for personal gain?
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:27 AM   #48
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So you know a bunch of people that 'thought it was unloaded' and 'forgot it was there' and hell, did they forget they forget to breathe too? PLEASE! I want to know why somone would shoot through a window with a supposedly unloaded gun. Why would you pull the trigger at all unless you were planning to shoot something? If I was you, I'd get a new set of friends and family that actually have something called BRAINS. There are no accidental shootings. There are only stupid people that don't know the first thing about gun safety or gun handling. I've personally been shot at twice and had guns drawn on me twice, so I'd say my PERSONAL experience outweighs your ancedotes. My wife's cousin was just executed by robbers in his store last year. They made him kneel facing the wall, and then blew his brains out. That might be the way you will go, but it won't be me. The 10:1 accidents is also a number you pulled out of your ass by not knowing anything about what you are talking about. Maybe it's 10:1 in your family, but maybe the collective IQ needs to be over 50 to count. By the way, I know plenty of people that were robbed and beaten at gunpoint. I know the ones doing the robbing and the beating.
So I was right that the gun owners you know are smarter then the gun owners I know, sorry all my friends and family are stupid, and sorry again everything comes out of my ass. Sorry about your wife's cousin, but you mean to tell me a store owner in Chicago DIDDNT have a gun? Or was he still not prepared even though he planed to prevent this exact thing? Sorry you happen to know the ones doing the beating & robing, and you tell ME that I need better friends & family.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:32 AM   #49
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And my 10:1 I did pull from my ass, and will still stand by it. Find me 1 that was tied up & watched his family get raped & I'll easily find you 10 cases where irresponsible gun owners could've caused a fatality.

And why do you have to take everything so personal, I try to give you the benefit of the dobut that you've unfortunately had to experience things I havent due to your line of work and location and you come back insulting my family's IQ.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:41 AM   #50
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Hi Guys,

In the NRA magazine, The American Rifleman, there is a column called "The Armed Citizen". Anyone who believes that having a firearm available, and having the training to use it wouldn't prevent a large measure of crimes should read a few of the examples listed.

Things have changed: Clinton killed the program to train people, especially young people, to safely handle and use weapons. We were once a nation of marksmen (and women), and now the commentators on the major networks seem to thrive on stories of how "a gun death happened".

OK, just to be clear: guns do not kill. They do not run in packs at night. They do not beat 15 year-old girls outside bus stations, like happened last week in Seattle. They are innocent tools, just like a bike. Bikes do not speed, nor do they crash. To expect to get on a bike and race at the IOM is plain stupid and will get you hurt---to expect to use a firearm without training and/or lots of experience will also get you hurt. I do NOT want the anti-gun folks to go out and buy a .40Smith revolver and then accidentally blow their foot off, and blame the pistol.

My kids learned about shooting and guns at an early age, as did I. We had it drilled into us about personal safety, responsibility and consequences, and it has worked. None of my family has ever shot anyone in anger, but we are all capable of defending ourselves, and I thank my father for that. My brother has a range out behind his house, (in the woods) and friends gather frequently to crack caps---everything from AK's to Pennsylvania cap-lock rifles. My personal favorites are a .44 Colt Army and a .45-70 Govt. Trapdoor carbine.

So. Just my opinion here, but for me is isn't about hunting. It isn't about target shooting, and it isn't even about self-defense. It's ALL about the Constitutional right (not privilege) to "keep and bear arms".

Apologies for the long post--the soapbox was kinda big......
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