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Old 07-30-2009, 04:30 PM   #1
seruzawa
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Default How about...

.. a serious discussion about issues of fairness and freedom? Maybe putting aside the knee jerk rhetoric and looking at facts might help.

How Much More Can We Redistribute: IRS Releases New Data » The Foundry

Soaking the rich is a fool's game. They are rich enough to leave. Then where are we. I doubt any of us will ever be hired by a poor man.

Are the "rich" an unlimited source of $? Realize that the US Senate is entirely made up of multi-millionaires and the laws will never affect people like them who deal in investments.. Wall St and such. So in spite of the rhetoric those CEOs who take billions in stock options aren't gonna pay because such laws will also go after the US Senate. The burden will, as always, fall on those who report salaries.

Basically, when is enough enough?
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:14 PM   #2
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Actually, the rich cannot just leave. We are one of the few countries that tax our citizens no matter where they live.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:18 PM   #3
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Actually, the rich cannot just leave. We are one of the few countries that tax our citizens no matter where they live.
They could repudiate citizenship. There is always a way.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:38 PM   #4
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Actually, the rich cannot just leave. We are one of the few countries that tax our citizens no matter where they live.
What? So like Johnny Depp is still payin' taxes to the USA from France? Not F'n likely.

Blood from a Stone and all that.
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Old 07-31-2009, 04:31 AM   #5
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"They are rich enough to leave."

Lets' face it. They already left. Anything meaningful to manufacture is now done outside the US. After 'Cap and Trade' is enacted, the rest whatever is left will soon be gone. I don't see a bright future, but that will be the future generation's problem.
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:16 AM   #6
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I'm in favor of a serious discussion without all the BS.

How much is enough? Extremely wealthy people in this country didn't get that way because God opened up the heavens and dumped cash in their wallets. They built their wealth using the resources, infrastructure, and labor of OUR nation. For decades the tax codes had a threashold of about $3M a year, above that the tax percentage went way up. We had a good economy for the most part, and the "rich people" seemed to be pretty comfortable. At the beginning of this century (we'll leave the names out of it) that tax code was changed and the tax contribution of the extremely wealthy went down drastically. Coincidently, or not, the deficit began to rise dramatically. When I was a little kid I recall there being a lot of discussion about how England was taxing the rich to the point they'd leave and the UK economy would collapse. That didn't happen, and in some ways their economy is stronger than ours. I'm NOT saying we should be like the UK, but I do think the rich have the ways and means to set the debate and skew opinions.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in our economic system, and that is the concept of public companies whose leadership is responsible only to the stockholders. I have personally witnessed three companies that were doing great when they were privately held, and then went to crap when they went public. The reason: they stopped making decisions based on what was good for the company, it's owners and management, and it's workers in long term, and became totally focused on producing dividends and EPS on the stock. As a result, when the quarter closes drew near, they made really bad decisions to meet a Wall Street expectation. Where before they'd ride the ups and downs in revenue and expenses, suddenly the only goal was putting X dollars into a spreadsheet so an analyst wouldn't knock their rating.

We have to find a balance between pure capitalism and pure socialism. Anybody in CA who had their power cut off because Enron shut down power plants to drive electric prices up has seen what happens when the only motivation is profit and individual gain. Anybody who lost their job in a factory so some corporation could make an extra $.50 per widget by making them in China knows we have to think further ahead than next quarter's earnings report.
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:42 AM   #7
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"Anybody who lost their job in a factory so some corporation could make an extra $.50 per widget by making them in China knows we have to think further ahead than next quarter's earnings report."

So you are saying they should stay here and not make an extra 50 cents a widget? Other than some misguided consideration for people you don't know and really don't care about, why shouldn't they move to China? So if a foreign firm moved near you and offered you much more money to work for them, you would stay at your current job for much less becuase it is an American company?
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:22 AM   #8
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There's a difference between what we'd like to see and what is actually possible. If one reads over Das Kapital one is struck by how correct many of Marx's criticisms of Capitalism are. The problem is that the solutions posed are completely unworkable as history has proven. 100 million corpses at the hands of socialists (Nazis, Communists, etc) should be a clue. While a lot of people love the idea of using the govt to "level the field" the fact is that in a free society the field is automatically level. All these current govt social schemes only create a different method of rewards that reward the people who don't deserve it. Look at the new Food Safety Act. In the name of protecting people we are going to see even more small farms pushed out of business while big agribusiness becomes even more of a monopoly of sorts. The Child Safety Act made it impossible for small toy companies to compete against the large (and mostly foreign) ones. We saw the effect on the motorcycle market a few months back. This is the usual result of govt "help". Cap and trade will hand billions to the politically connected while not reducing CO2 output one whit.

The Chinese are in the US this week asking us to balance the budget. Good luck with that. Trillion dollar deficits for years to come = disaster. If we confiscated all the money the rich make over say $200K per person it still won't make a dent in the insane levels of current spending. Unless this country has a moral awakening and rejects the "gimmee" attitude there will be no stopping the trainweck.

In any case our economy is way high on the Laffer Curve. Raising taxes won't bring in much more revenue. That game is over. We're going to have to look to our own devices. The govt is a net destructive force now.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:25 AM   #9
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Another intersting article.

You're (Probably) a Federal Criminal - FOXNews.com
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:20 AM   #10
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Holy sh*t! Only proves that as a nation we have lost our minds.
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