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Old 05-11-2009, 05:48 AM   #51
schizuki
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Back to the Scare Force One flight - it appears the whole "photo mission" story is bogus. Good discussion here, from an Obama voter.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:51 AM   #52
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I'm pretty sure the only 'isolating' we did in those grand old 'early days' was move those pesky Native Americans to reservations. Of course, we can't say those things because that would be 'ethnic cleansing' now wouldn't it? Forget I mentioned it.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:55 AM   #53
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" I think we've overspent on the defense many times over, and we've created a self-perpetuating defense industry that can only grow and show a good ROI by using the products it creates."

Maybe if we got some of our 'allies' (and believe me, I use that word very loosely here) to shoulder the load, we could cut back our 'defense' spending. Since we are securing most of the world against attack, I guess that might cost us a buck or two. While we poured all our money in 'defense' protecting Japan, they poured all their money into industry, which then took over our industry. Smart. Just look at all the help we are getting in Afghanistan from our 'allies'. With friends like them, we don't need enemies.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:31 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by schizuki View Post
Back to the Scare Force One flight - it appears the whole "photo mission" story is bogus. Good discussion here, from an Obama voter.
It was a pretty horrible photo for 300 grand. However, the blogger is incorrect regarding F-16s used for photo shoots. There are several modified fights jets with extra seats. I've got a great book by a military photographer and he shot most of his work out of the back of an F-16. Well, he did until it crashed and he died!

I flew in a 2 seat F-18 so they exist.

Would it surprise me if Obama had a bunch of big donors on that flight? Not at all. Didn't Clinton turn the Lincoln bedroom into a timeshare?

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Old 05-11-2009, 06:50 AM   #55
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You're right, the Dems have instigated and/or supported wars, "right or wrong" as much as the Republicans.

What really bugs me is when I think about what we could have done the last 20-30 years with the money we've spent on defense, especially since the Cold War ended. If we'd put a fraction of the same resources into energy, space exploration, our national infrastructure, etc. we'd be taking vacations on the Moon and our bikes would fly. (NOT LITERALLY, I'm trying to make a point). I think we've overspent on the defense many times over, and we've created a self-perpetuating defense industry that can only grow and show a good ROI by using the products it creates.
Would be nice if we lived in a world where we could spend money on things other than defense. Unfortunately here are just a few of things we needed our military for in the past 20-30 years:

1945-1991 Cold War with Soviet Union
1950-UFN Korea
1983 Grenada
1989 Panama
1990-1991 Gulf War I
1992-1993 Somalia
Early 90's UFN Balkans
2001-UFN Afghanistan
2003-UFN Iraq

The Federal Government's main purpose is to provide for the national defense. I'd rather we spend the money on keeping our men and women supplied with the best money can buy rather give some crack head on welfare more money to buy dope.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:55 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
You're right, the Dems have instigated and/or supported wars, "right or wrong" as much as the Republicans.

What really bugs me is when I think about what we could have done the last 20-30 years with the money we've spent on defense, especially since the Cold War ended. If we'd put a fraction of the same resources into energy, space exploration, our national infrastructure, etc. we'd be taking vacations on the Moon and our bikes would fly. (NOT LITERALLY, I'm trying to make a point). I think we've overspent on the defense many times over, and we've created a self-perpetuating defense industry that can only grow and show a good ROI by using the products it creates.
Right. And think of what he could have done if we'd eliminated the Dept of Education, entitlements and all the other panoply of social programs... that dwarf defense spending. Those "industries" also are self-perpetuating revolving door corruptions that haven't ever achived any goal except expanding their empires.

Better yet. Let people keep their money and spend it as they will.

Too radical a concept.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:01 AM   #57
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Would that be the "peaceful", "isolationist" little pre-WWII nation that expanded across North America, acquired swaths of land in a provoked war with Mexico, poached the Spanish Empire, carved Panama out of Columbia, and stirred up anti-German sentiment and sold arms to Germany's enemies (including 4.2 million rounds of Lee-Enfield ammunition on the Lusitania) before WWI? That peaceful, isolationist nation?
"Isolationist" is a term that was invented by people who wanted the USA involved in European politics. The purpose was to insult and demean those who didn't. The USA has never been "isolationist". The original idea was trade with everyone and stay out of their political affairs as much as possible. How could the USA have one of the world's largest commercial fleets and Navies and still be "isolationist"?
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:14 AM   #58
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It was a pretty horrible photo for 300 grand. However, the blogger is incorrect regarding F-16s used for photo shoots. There are several modified fights jets with extra seats. I've got a great book by a military photographer and he shot most of his work out of the back of an F-16. Well, he did until it crashed and he died!
Thanks for the info, Buz. That definitely puts a different gloss on it. However, that particular photo still looks like a pilot's snapshot. Strange.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzglyd View Post
It was a pretty horrible photo for 300 grand. However, the blogger is incorrect regarding F-16s used for photo shoots. There are several modified fights jets with extra seats. I've got a great book by a military photographer and he shot most of his work out of the back of an F-16. Well, he did until it crashed and he died!

I flew in a 2 seat F-18 so they exist.

Would it surprise me if Obama had a bunch of big donors on that flight? Not at all. Didn't Clinton turn the Lincoln bedroom into a timeshare?

Breaking Free- The Aerial Photography of Judson Brohmer

Incredible Book

Breaking Free: The Aerial Photography of Judson P. Brohmer. | Article from Airpower | HighBeam Research
The Navy, Marines and AF buy a substantial number of two-seater variants of their fighter craft, mainly for training purposes. The F-16B/D are a two seaters. Another school of thought believes that two seaters are better for air combat because of the extra set of eyes and another person to help reduce the pilot's attention loading.
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:13 AM   #60
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As one who was a PR (Parachure Rigger, Aircrew Survival Equipmentman) in an F4J Squadron (VF-33 the Tarsiers) right before Elmo took over, and banned all non-essential personnel from getting flight orders, I got to ride in the back seat of my former F4 when I was on the line as a plane captian (206).

206 was a "Mig Killer" in Vietnam, with two confirmed kills (Mig 15 & 21). The flight lasted about half an hour, we took off from NAS Ocenana VA and went "AB" over the coast and were over DC before I knew it.

It was at that time I realized I could never become a pilot. Not even in a Cessna 150 (I tried, believe me!)

The pilot, Lt. Gallup (a real cool zero, not some egotistical zit) did a few aerobatic tricks to try and make me puke, but I held my mud. and we touched down, the drouge chute on the Phantom slowing us down like an anchor.

Believe me, when I climbed out of the back seat of that bird, I was pretty shakey. Back to the paraloft for me! I had a new found respect for those fighter jocks. They do a job about 1% of us can do, no more, no less.

Oh and 206 was lost on a ramp-strike incident on my last Med cruise in '78. Both the pilot and rio were lost, splattered in the port catwalk.
The rio, Lt. Franklin knew he wasn't going to make it the last time he suited up in the ready room, I head him say "I feel real hinky about this ride". He had some preminiiton, obviously.
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