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Old 05-04-2009, 11:30 AM   #11
Kenneth_Moore
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Originally Posted by longride View Post
"The only real wealth created in my lifetime in the US was the Internet and computing boom."

Complete Fallacy. The only real wealth is gold. Period. The rest is just paper or imagination. Selling things is 'real wealth' like your house is 'real wealth'. Same thing. If the economy totally collapsed tomorrow, you find that 'real wealth' better be gold in your pocket.
Talk about Complete Fallacy!! Gold is a metal. Nothing more. You can't eat it, you can't ride it, you can't learn from it, you can't do a damn thing with it, with a very few exceptions.

Gold's only "real" value is:

A) whatever the market decides it's worth from one day to the next. (and btw, the value varies extremely widely over the years).

B) Whatever value it has as a commodity. Gold is useful for a very few applications; it makes a good conductor and insulator.

Diamonds are the same way; their value is set by the marketplace and they have a very limited "real" value as an abrasive or cutting material. That's a terrible example!

Price (not value) of Gold
1995 $327
2000 $272
Today $887
Tomorrow $Nobody knows
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by sarnali2 View Post
Not even gold has any real value, only food and water. The one that controls that controls everything else. Look what happened when we shifted a minor percent of corn production to fuel, food riots in the the third world. It's easy to forget with abundance of food we have here that half the world lives on the razors edge of food and water availability. Our dogs eat better then them.
I should have read the rest of the thread and just done a

"+1"

before writing my response.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #13
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These things aren't created by politicians Ken, despite Al Gore's internet claims.
.
Agreed, but the government has the ability to set the stage. Good examples:

Interstate Highway system: nobody "needed" it or was willing to pay for it. Now we can't live without it.

Space Program to date: done for all the wrong reasons initially, but in spite of that the benefits to us and the world are countless.

The internet: based on DARAPA; a government funded enterprise that collaborated with industry and educations. An excellent model on how to do it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:01 PM   #14
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First you have to assume that giving the govt more money is a good thing. Then you have to assume that the businesses don't just find another way to hide the money.

It's amazing how many people think that giving more money to the govt will improve things. Just because it's done a few things that are beneficial doesn't mean that it should have more billions of dollars to spend on so much evil and destructive actions. The govt already does more harm than good. We should be thinking of ways to de-fund it not empower it.
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Old 05-04-2009, 12:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Talk about Complete Fallacy!! Gold is a metal. Nothing more. You can't eat it, you can't ride it, you can't learn from it, you can't do a damn thing with it, with a very few exceptions.

Gold's only "real" value is:

A) whatever the market decides it's worth from one day to the next. (and btw, the value varies extremely widely over the years).

B) Whatever value it has as a commodity. Gold is useful for a very few applications; it makes a good conductor and insulator.

Diamonds are the same way; their value is set by the marketplace and they have a very limited "real" value as an abrasive or cutting material. That's a terrible example!

Price (not value) of Gold
1995 $327
2000 $272
Today $887
Tomorrow $Nobody knows
Gold is still the international standard of wealth. That is what your paper money was supposed to be based on. It is the international standard of wealth regardless of the trading price. Diamonds are worthless and not a standard of anything. Gold will always be accepted as tender long after paper money, bonds, and everything else is deemed worthless. That is why Fort Knox exists.

Monetary relevance of Gold
The present world monetary system, like its predecessors, is founded on Gold held in treasuries or Central Banks.
Gold is money, and money is Gold plus credit and cash. Man can debase credit, even cash, but not Gold. Without a
Gold standard, the public cannot prevent governments from pursuing destabilising monetary policies through either
fiscal profligacy or attempts to escape Asset and Debt deflation.
World Central Bank holdings of Gold at market price constitute one part of World International Monetary Reserves
(IMRs), the base on which the world's monetary system rests. Also part of IMR Assets of each Central Bank are
their holdings of Foreign Exchange and their Special Drawing Rights held in the International Monetary Fund. Total
IMR Assets are equal to the net sum of the domestic components of the World Central Bank balance sheet, namely
Domestic Currency Liabilities plus other Domestic Liabilities minus Domestic Assets. Measurement of changes in
IMR’s tells us whether the World's Central Bank Monetary Base as defined is expanding, unchanging or contracting.
At the time of Bretton Woods in 1944, Gold constituted ninety per cent of consolidated World Central Bank
International Monetary Reserve assets and the USA owned ninety per cent of Central Bank Gold. Hence the US
Dollar became the key currency in the International Monetary System. World Central Bank holdings of Gold remain
close to 900 million ounces, similar to the level they were at sixty years ago, though the US now holds only 28 per
cent with an increased proportion held by Euroland and certain governments in Asia, especially Japan.
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Old 05-04-2009, 03:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by longride View Post
...Obamalama is going to do something that will actually help the country! Took him long enough.

Comcast.net: Obama to crack down on business taxes
Ok, I'm somehow completely missing the sarcasm. *rubs eyes* Nope, still not seeing it. Its got to be there somewhere. April fools day isnt in May. *rubs eyes again* hmmm, I give up.
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Old 05-04-2009, 04:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Kenneth_Moore View Post
Agreed, but the government has the ability to set the stage. Good examples:

Interstate Highway system: nobody "needed" it or was willing to pay for it. Now we can't live without it.

Space Program to date: done for all the wrong reasons initially, but in spite of that the benefits to us and the world are countless.

The internet: based on DARAPA; a government funded enterprise that collaborated with industry and educations. An excellent model on how to do it.
Note that your three examples (the first, inarguably, the other two, debatably) are infrastructure projects (physical infrastructure, communications infrastructure, information infrastructure - all "highways" of a sort). These fall under the "internal improvements" of the Constitution and thus, are acceptably the responsibility of the Federal government.

So congrats! You've stumbled into sound Constitutional thinking.

Lose the "energy economy" nonsense, though. Subsidizing bad alternatives to oil just keeps money from true innovation and causes unintended consequences. Best thing the gummint can do in energy policy is stay out of the way of nuclear power.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:15 PM   #18
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Gold is still the international standard of wealth. That is what your paper money was supposed to be based on. It is the international standard of wealth regardless of the trading price. Diamonds are worthless and not a standard of anything. Gold will always be accepted as tender long after paper money, bonds, and everything else is deemed worthless. That is why Fort Knox exists.
You said "real wealth." "Real wealth" isn't a standard. Real wealth is material things of value. A building is real wealth. A road is real wealth. A crop of potatos is real wealth. Gold is just another standard like money. And you can tell it's just another "standard" by asking yourself the following: what is the way I can tell the true "value" of gold at any given point in time? By seeing how many dollars I can get for it so I can go buy things that I really need or want.
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Old 05-04-2009, 07:19 PM   #19
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So congrats! You've stumbled into sound Constitutional thinking.
As much as I appreciate your kind words, the truth is I picked easy examples that I figured even you could grasp. But, if you want to stretch yourself, here's a few more off the top of my head; they're a bit harder, but you can do it:

The air transport system: funded by what were essentially government grants via mail delivery contracts.

Food and drug standards that protect us from unscrupulous vendors. Not exactly infrastructure, but I doubt you'd like to find rat turds in your cereal. Would you?


Child labor laws...that meddling government, insisting that good farm kids have to learn to read and write! What next?
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:20 PM   #20
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As much as I appreciate your kind words, the truth is I picked easy examples that I figured even you could grasp. But, if you want to stretch yourself, here's a few more off the top of my head; they're a bit harder, but you can do it:

The air transport system: funded by what were essentially government grants via mail delivery contracts.

Food and drug standards that protect us from unscrupulous vendors. Not exactly infrastructure, but I doubt you'd like to find rat turds in your cereal. Would you?


Child labor laws...that meddling government, insisting that good farm kids have to learn to read and write! What next?
Attributing education to the govt is pretty funny. Parents hired teachers for their kids as a community loooong before the State took it on. I wouldn't be too quick too credit the govt, looking at how badly govt schools are compared to private schools. Govt schools teach that socialism is good.... proof positive of how destructive govt education is. The kids can't read or do math, but they looooove their govt.

Food and drug standards protect us hardly at all. No more than any police agency could. Or are you unaware of the FDA/Drug company revolving door? They approved thalidomide, fen-phen, nutra-sweet, prozac...... better find another example of this wonderful govt.
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