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Old 12-07-2001, 01:39 PM   #31
granny
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Default Re: Aprilia announces GP1 contender

I've always wondered why Triumph has no serious (any?) racing program. I guess they, like HD, feel that a racing program is not required to sell bikes. Perhaps that is true. Speaking for myself, even though I know that I should not be swayed by racing results, marques that don't race *and* win are not on my short list of bikes that I'd consider buying. YMMV.
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Old 12-07-2001, 02:00 PM   #32
granny
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Default Re: Big Shake Coming

Absolutely on the money. Displacement is not an issue. One thing that *is* an issue is mentioned the final paragraph in the announcement concerning the importance of the electronics in making "a decisive contribution to transmitting the truly remarkable performance of the engine to the ground". That sounds like (at least) traction control to me. I'm no luddite but I'm a bit dismayed to see such basic riding control wrested from the hands of the riders. I certainly understand why Aprilia are in favor of it though, as much money as they've probably invested this bike (in a weak economy), they must desperately want to win at least one season. What better than to win in the first season?



And what would riding motorcycles be like if there was an effective stability control mechanism as is available in many cars? The biggest obstacle to riding motorcycles by general public is that unlike cars, riding motorcycles requires actual skill. If that obstacle were eliminated, there might be more motorcycles which would be a good thing (though I prefer to be in full control of the bike even though I'm no Rossi or Garry).
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Old 12-07-2001, 06:48 PM   #33
badsac
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Default Chandler?????

If they use Chandler, I'll run naked around Laguna Seca on the WSB weekend.
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Old 12-08-2001, 06:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: Not Meridien, Hinckley

Did I say Meridien? Boy, am I dating myself! Just as well since I can't get anyone else to date me. Thanks for helping me realize that altzheimers has begun its insidious capture of my brain, a fortune which, I believe, I share with our current president, Ronald Reagan.
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Old 12-08-2001, 08:33 AM   #35
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Default Tuono & Mana

What do you guys think about the Tuono? The way I see it is they built another Mille R, only this time they made it ugly.



Seriously, the bike is not even naked! Streetfighters ahve to have style and attitude besides good performance... and the style on this one is lacking (in my humble opinion).



The Mana is a different story. Nice looking bike with some purpose behind the looks. Much better than the Multistrada.
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Old 12-08-2001, 11:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Well.....

Dude, the MV Agusta F4, not the honda 600 F4. Please.
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Old 12-08-2001, 02:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: Big Shake Coming

Agreed on traction control - though I don't quite think it's real wheel traction that the paragraph is talking about - sounds to me more like non-linear throttle control ability, and another thing, which is probably it and will be very good for general riding public after "ride-by-wire" tech will be widely available (and I think it's coming to that - FI is already common, and these are connected) - a mechanism similar to the new GSX-R750's double butterfly valves, controlling the engine intake on on-off throttle transitions, to prevent surging reaction - it's easily done with computer-based evaluation of throttle position change etc. And maybe another good thing for a rider with 220+ bhp power - some mechanism similar to the vacuum clutch slipper on RSV Mille, preventing shattering the rear tyre on gear change, but throttle- and computer-based instead of mechanical. I think it can prove useful technology, which doesn't take much control from the rider, only the side-effects..

And one of the things I like bikes for is that it's almost only about your level of control, and the bike REQUIRES it, unlike a car. And you can't be a bad biker - you'll end up in a casket very soon. But I don't think I'd dislike a good aid like I described above.. All this is invented (at least supposed to be) to help the rider getting maximum from the bike, but no technology will ever take a place of the rider - I don't think it'll save someone who's ham-fisted and cracking open the throttle of a powerful bike. And I want to hope that manufacturers are well aware of the fact that bikers wish to remain in control of their bikes - that's why they ride them! Scooters (and big ones) are for those who want 2 wheels and don't want to mess with controls and prefer an easy ride - fully understand these people. But I ride for the thrill of it!
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Old 12-08-2001, 03:40 PM   #38
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Default Other than the number of cylinders

this has nothing to do with Triumph. What resulting streetbike do you think will come of this? It's a GP bike. If they ever do a triple streetbike it will only be marginally related to this. Triumph is already at a GSXR1000 level of tune for a triple of that size. The fact that it makes more than a 929 is amazing. I think this feat is overlooked mostly because the overall bang for the buck is what buyers care about, and you can get more for less from a japanese four.
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Old 12-09-2001, 05:34 AM   #39
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Default Re: Big Shake Coming

He might be referring to the sorry state of WSB and all the crying that goes on over the v-twin 1000cc vs. 750-4's. And I agree. When you make one engine config one size and another a different size, you will only breed fear and loathing. I said this in another post on another topic, but when you have such different 'standards' ( don't care about the tech. behind the engine, right?.. as you said ), then when one side trounces another, the loser will cry about it. That is a -bad- thing.



Further, if the 2s manage to trounce or even only mildly embarass the 4s for the next year or two or, God forbid, three... what do you think you'll hear from the 4s camps?!... "Ban the 2s!!, or give me yet MORE cc's for my 4s!"... garbage. If you can't beat 'em...



The funny thing is that here in the 'new' GP1, instead of handicapping the various 4s configurations by size, they let them all be 1000cc... like WSB -should- be. Use weight to equalize! So, I have to say that GP1 is on the right track... now, just give the 2s the same displacement limit (b/c again... who cares what the technology behind the engine is, right?) and all will be right with the world.



Don't worry.. no one is going to build a 1000cc 2s... no one could ride it. But at least it'd give them some headroom (add 50 ~ 100cc when a bump in power is needed.. headroom for years!) and simultaneously remove a potential 'complaining' point. Oh BTW, you'd also have more teams in the series b/c it's far cheaper to develop 2s than 4s (at this level)... a win-win if you ask me.



-James
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Old 12-09-2001, 11:10 AM   #40
Jack_R750
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Default Re: Big Shake Coming

Partly, I agree with you. But - as you can't compare 1000cc 2-stroke and 1000cc 4-stroke, though not so harsh, difference exists between various engine configs. And about the regulations in WSB - they are based on street bikes, and the engines can't be developed to the stage the GP engines are at, thus the handicap. GSX-R750 produces more power in WSB version than Ducati and Aprilia, also does the old ZX-7R. They lack torque in comparison. But if you check the GP 4-stroke contenders, though vastly different engine configurations (from Ducati short-stroke twin to Honda V5), they produce the same power - around 220 bhp. I have no idea how it is achieved, but seemingly you can't achieve the same results with WSB engines - being street-based may be what matters..

Another point in handicapping 2-strokes is that they produce power every engine rotation, while 4-strokes only once in 2 rotations. Thus, they also eat twice as much fuel, and are theoretically capable of producing twice the power (their low efficiency is why they aren't in the same power range). So some regulation is necessary - you don't want racing to be single-sided. In their current state, 500cc 2-strokes and 1000cc 4-strokes are competitive with each other, each have their ups and downs. If you produce 600cc 2-stroke, it'll require 1200cc 4-stroke to be around the same level. And don't forget, although much more powerful, 4-strokes are heavier and bulkier, in comparison to the featherweight 2-strokes.

Also, the point in introducing 4-strokes is, sadly or not, ceasing the development of 2-strokes.. Till some better tecnology surfaces.
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