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Old 12-13-2001, 11:49 AM   #51
starvingstudent
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Default Re: You forgot something:

A world without the Katana 600? Say it ain't so!
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Old 12-13-2001, 11:58 AM   #52
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Default loyalty

There's a few people out there who are GSXR or ZX loyalists till the day they die, but that's a VERY small minority.



Most buyers of Japanese bikes either a) don't care about the name on the tank, or b) have a slight preference but wouldn't let that be a deciding factor. For example, I'm a "Honda" guy, as in I find something extra-attractive about Hondas, but I feel no doubts or guilt about buying a Suzuki or a Yamaha, if they make the bike I want and Honda doesn't. I would have no qualms whatsoever about buying a Suzusaki (even in the company's first years), if they made a model that attracted me.



Kawasaki engineers make good bikes; Suzuki engineers make good bikes; it's not hard to imagine that the two groups sitting around a table could make good bikes.



As for propping up the company until it catches hold, remember neither company is _solely_ a motorcycle company. This is a big advantage the Japanese four have over, say, HD or Moto Guzzi.
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Old 12-13-2001, 03:57 PM   #53
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Default Re: loyalty

The problem is that the combined motorcycle company will be independant and spun off from Kawi Heavy and Suzuki auto (at least from what I understand from the press release) so it won't have the resources of those two larger, diversified companies. Launching a new brand is pretty difficult in this industry, ask polaris.
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:15 PM   #54
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

IÂ’m beginning to warn up to the idea of Suzuki and Kawasaki merging. Combine SuzukiÂ’s bonsai boost with KawasakiÂ’s flickability and presto, youÂ’ve got a pretty nice machine. The only thing we need to now is figure out what to call the thing. How about Kawazuki or Susaki, think about this thing just makeÂ’s me want to sing. Suki aki hock soc suk, you saki to me, I saki to you.
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Old 12-13-2001, 05:23 PM   #55
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

Hey what the hell is wrong with the Pacific Coast? That is what I ride and I think Honda's best kept secret is a great bike.
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Old 12-13-2001, 10:53 PM   #56
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

How about these names ?



Associated Motor Cycles.

Manganese Bronze Holdings.

Japanese Leyland.

(s******).



What is all this dribble about sportsbikes ? The most biggest selling bike in the world is the Honda Dream, basically a late-50s SuperCub - nothing high-tech there, no major R and D costs involved.



The largest selling bikes in Japan are 50s and 125s, and it is the japanese production (not overseas with Bajaj, Sundiro, Norkis and so on) that is being pooled.
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Old 12-14-2001, 04:30 AM   #57
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

1) No, you never explicitly said that sportbikes were sales leaders, but you said that people interested in Japanese motorcycles only want the hardcore sportbikes (lightest, fastest, most power). If your statement was correct, don't you think that hardcore sportbikes would be big sellers for them?



Ans: Maybe they want those features in their 'other' bikes too?? Oh and I forgot cheap. What would the Japanese industry be without cheap motorcycles? How do they make em that cheap and still make money? Answer is they don't. Read on.



2) The R1 has very few races wins at the professional level, but sells quite nicely (relative to other hardcore sportbikes, at least).



Ans: But Honda wins more and sells more hence my statement. What other bike wins more and sells less? Name it.



3) Why eliminate the cruiser lines ("Harley clones" as you put it) from the discussion? Some of them are good sellers (i.e. they make money).



Ans: Cause those are just cheap ripoffs of what people are buying right now. Remember when Harley was going out of business and the Japanese Mfgs. told them it was because the V-Twin engine was an inferior design to the inline four? That was back in 1979. They offered to give em engineering help to design a four and Harley told em to piss off. Now 3/4 of a thier designs are around that 'inferior engine design' LOL Interesting no??



4) Most of the recent Japanese "standards" (FZ, 919, ZRX, SV650, etc.) are definitely not 80's tech. They lag the sportbikes by a few years, but not by 15-20 years.



Ans: When was the engine in that ZRX made?? LOL

Cept for the Ducati copy above, the rest are just old, tired inline four redisigns. Same ole, same ole.



5) In addition to tourers, let's also not forget dual-sports and dirt bikes, markets which the Japanese manufacturers largely dominate, at least in the US (with the notable exception of the large adventure-tourer market).



Ans: Yeah I'm sure they make a good living off those. Big market there I'll tell ya.



6) Exactly how many major Japanese motorcycle manufacturers have you watched go under since the 60's?



Ans: Not a one. Gov't subsidies were plentiful, the other interests of those companies kept the motorcycle market afloat. When they had 3 years worth of inventory here in the states and cut the bikes prices by half in the 80's why no merger then? Because losses were covered, get it? Times they are a changin'.



Your point (as I read it), is that the costs of manufacturing hardcore sportbikes are finally, after 30 years, killing the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers, as evidenced by this merger.



Ans: No, that wasn't my 'point'. My 'point' is the Japanese Mfgs. rarely, if ever, made profitable motorcycles. They were propped up by a stranglehold on the domestic market (which they still have) and Govt subsidies and other markets that propped up the industry for years. The money has dried up and now, as the article states, they may have to spin off and be profitable. Watch the prices then, and how often the 'redo' comes.



My point is that your conclusion is unfounded and incorrect. This merger and the general decline of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers have a lot more to do with other factors than it does with your presumed losses from manufacturing hardcore sportbikes.



Ans: Never said it was the sportbikes alone that did it, but they are the biggest money wasters period. They don't have that money anymore and it will show. Honda still does though. No mergers there. The auto, lawnmower, watercraft, and 1 million other products they make will eat up those motorcycle division losses like they did since the 80's. These companies aren't merging for the 'fun' of it. They are going broke. The other divisions can't funnel em the $$ like the past and govt subsidies are waning. Whatever your supposed 'other' factors are I would love to hear. If the motorcycle industry is doing so poorly, then why is Harley making record profits every quarter? Answer is no race teams, no totally new models every year, no 3 mph faster and 3 lbs lighter models. They had to make a profit from their sales, and they are. They are a business model. If the Japanese Mfgs. had to make a profit they would have been out of business many years ago. That is my point.
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Old 12-14-2001, 04:31 AM   #58
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Default Re: Brand Loyalty out the window

Or Hardley going out of business?? LOL
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Old 12-14-2001, 05:34 AM   #59
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

3) Why eliminate the cruiser lines ("Harley clones" as you put it) from the discussion? Some of them are good sellers (i.e. they make money).



Ans: Cause those are just cheap ripoffs of what people are buying right now. Remember when Harley was going out of business and the Japanese Mfgs. told them it was because the V-Twin engine was an inferior design to the inline four? That was back in 1979. They offered to give em engineering help to design a four and Harley told em to piss off. Now 3/4 of a thier designs are around that 'inferior engine design' LOL Interesting no??



Name me ONE techonological advance Harley has brought to motorcycling in its entire history as a company.



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Old 12-14-2001, 06:05 AM   #60
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Default Re: Update on Kawasaki/Suzuki merger

Or more importantly World Supersport Champion.
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