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Old 11-01-2000, 05:49 AM   #41
Abe_Froman
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Default Re: The Sausage Emperor Has no Clothes!

Let's go back to what you said here, buddy.





Well, Abe, if the Supreme Court has acted unconstitutionally, it''s the first I''ve heard of it. I''d love to reference some reputable legal scholars who agree with you. But there''s a long, long body of cases, going back to Marbury v. Madison, that gives the Supreme Court the power to decide on the Constitutional validity of state and Federal legislation.



The Supreme Court GAVE ITSELF by judicial fiat the power to decide. Nobody gave them the power. That was the context of the decision. Take a class in Constitutional law. And let's juxtapose a couple of your statements:



Uh-oh! Right to life rhetoric alert! Do you really think having a right to privacy is repugnant? You don''t like legal abortion, and I understand that. But many Americans do.



Just because legislation is unpopular doesn''t make it illegitimate or wrong.



Obviously then, you aren't above reason. You could then see that any mandate legalizing abortion is unconstitutional via the 5th amendment No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. That is all it takes to prevent the taking of life.



That logic isn''t quite as solid as one of your Kielbasas, Abe! I''m glad it''s not true, since I could list a litany of unjust laws that were perfectly popular through the ages, from Jim Crow to anti-asian immigration laws, to laws against Jews and Communists, all the way up to the present anti-homosexual witch hunt in the military. Abe for Fuhrer! I mean, uh, president.





The majority of the laws you just stated were unconstitutional. And if you want to believe that homosexuals are good for our armed forces, fine. Obviously you've never spent any time serving them. I challenge you to find a military officer that will agree with you.



You obviously have a problem with Christianity, and YOU are fostering the anti-Christian additude that is quickly becoming a witch hunt in this country. The fact that I am a conservative Christian is enough for you to immediately label me a rascist and a Nazi.



That shows just how willing you are to have a logical discussion, Stalin boy.



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Old 11-01-2000, 05:54 AM   #42
Abe_Froman
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Default Re: The Sausage Emperor Has no Clothes!

By the way, do you even ride a motorcycle? While we're calling each other names, I just thought I'd say that I bet you can't ride one very well.
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Old 11-01-2000, 06:15 AM   #43
Abe_Froman
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Default Re: Oh no, its the Gestapo!

Aren't you the same idiot who said Abe for Fuhrer in an earlier post? Take your own advice, you hypocrite.
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Old 11-01-2000, 06:31 AM   #44
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Default Re: The Sausage Emperor Has no Clothes!

Dumped your bike 15 times? I guess not.
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Old 11-01-2000, 08:14 AM   #45
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Default Re: Damn Straight!

Woooo.... Good one...
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Old 11-01-2000, 08:22 AM   #46
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Default Re: You have been duped by the insurance companies

>>Also, your floodgate argument doesn't pan out. >>Laws are passed, in general, when there's a >>compelling need for them, not just at the whim >>of a few people. No, really.





Just what country do you live in? Have you heard of the N.O.W.? GLAAD? ACLU? PETA? ALF? The Supreme Court? The Democratic Party? Al Gore?



Unneccessary, unconstitutional laws are passed at the whim of a few people all the time. FDR started this whole Socialist Security, welfare and IRS-gestapo state that we now live in almost single-handedly.
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Old 11-01-2000, 09:35 AM   #47
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Default Re: Oh no, its the Gestapo!

BTW---That one's for you Gabe.
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Old 11-01-2000, 09:55 AM   #48
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Default Touchy, touchy!

Wow, Abe, it sure doesn't take much to set you off! But you obviously only disagree on 3 of my points, or you just don't have time to respond to the others.



Of course the Supreme Court gave itself some power. It had to, since there wasn't any other branch of governement availiable to do the things they now do. And since they've had that power for close to 200 years, I'm assuming most folks feel it's OK.



Yes, government-funded abortion would violate the 5th amendment (but remember, Abe, the 5th amendment, as most of the bill of rights does, only protects from Government action.), but only if EVERYBODY agreed that first or second trimester embryos were a human life. That's a modern-day christian thing, and although you can call me names for disagreeing with you, it doesn't make you right. Talmudic scholars feel a life doesn't become human until the "quickening", and the law follows that. So don't come from the position of absolute truth. You are entitled to your opinion on this and I respect it, but it's far from objective reality. Just your opinion.



"The majority of the laws you just stated were unconstitutional. And if you want to believe that

homosexuals are good for our armed forces, fine. Obviously you've never spent any time serving them. I challenge you to find a military officer that will agree with you. "



Sure, those laws are unconstitutional NOW! But Jim Crow lasted 80 years before being struck down by the courts. You said that if everybody likes a law, it's constitutional. I said no. It's tyranny of the majority, Abe, something our founding fathers abhored.



As far as gays in the military, I spent 7 years in the armed forces, 4 as an NCO. And I don't have a problem with it. (No, I'm not gay.) For a very interesting and in-depth discussion of the problem, read Randy Shilts' "Conduct Unbecoming", if you're not afraid of hearing opinions contrary to your own.



As far as my anti-christian bias, I have no idea of what you're talking about. I never called you a racist, and my "fuherer" comment was just to poke fun at your implication that the majority is always right. Sorry if I offended you. Also, I challenge YOU to find evidence of this so-called witch hunt. I have never heard of anybody jailed, fired, or even bad-mouthed officially for being a christian. The only problem I have with fundamental christianity is when the movement tries to pass laws and dictate policy that tells me and my family what to do. As a jew, I don't want to be christian, so keep your opinions and morality to yourself and your community. I can think for myself.



I have plenty of respect for Christians, from Martin Luther King, jr to the many hundreds of churches and christian groups dedicated to human rights and charity world wide. If you think because I am leary of the christian right influencing legislators I hate all christians, you need to start using Prozac.







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Old 11-01-2000, 09:58 AM   #49
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Default Re: Oh no, its the Gestapo!

You're right! That's why I'll be at Sears Point tomorrow, practicing!



Have fun at work!
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Old 11-01-2000, 11:26 AM   #50
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Default Thoughts on Gabe''s Posting

I will begin by saying that Gabe has a lucid viewpoint and a well-reasoned line of thinking. But his reasoning is predicated on assumptions that are not consensual to all of us as citizens.



In the same way that Gabe backed up and addressed fundamental issues of law in the course of discussing helmet laws, I wish to back up a bit further in a way which I think will illuminate the rift between supporters and opponents.



To accept the legitimacy of a constitutional argument for helmet laws or anything else requires an acceptance of the legitimacy of the authority from which it descends, and this is where many foes of government regulation part ways with those who argue on a legal basis. It's like arguing a theological detail with a non-believer, and it's missing the point. While I would like this government much better if I felt that my rights under the constitution were being supported rather than infringed, I believe that the constitution is a tool of a corrupt authority which is no more or less than a very big organized crime syndicate. So what this illegitimate authority and its lackeys think my rights are or are not is immaterial to me.



As I see it, my rights of self-determination as a human being far exceed any "rights" granted me by thugs in return for allegiance to their rule. The social contract only holds any compelling moral force if there is another option besides to comply with the will of those who can inflict the most violence (which is ultimately what determines who gets to rule a place.)



For folks who purport to represent the will of the people to instead put more and more conditions on participation in the system (which no one is at liberty to opt out of except by death) is unfair at best and outrageous at worst. A helmet law is just one of a hundred thousand examples of the sort of behavior-limiting rules that make many people chafe, not because of the limitation per se, but because it is dictated by morally inferior beings motivated by self-interest or worse.



God made men, but it was men, dishonest men, who made law. And they made it to suit their own purposes. Why shouldn't someone be resentful of this and use his available means to resist? Every restrictive law matters to someone, and this one matters to many of us as motorcyclists. It is no surprise that here is where some will choose to make their stand, even when others think them foolish to fight for a right that is unwise to exercise.



If the powerful were less obsessed with control, we would not even be having this discussion.

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