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Old 09-14-2001, 10:59 PM   #41
suicyco
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Default Re: Please don

I feel that if afganistan is invaded, it will be different to when russia was there or completely different than americas own vietnam. Why, international backing. There is no other side feeding in money, training and weapons like in afganistan (america thru bin laden) and the soviets with vietnam.

They will be reaching a united front. Is it any wonder that most 'muslem' countrys are very quick to respond with their support and condolances. They will be facing a world united in hatred agaist their insane actions.
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Old 09-15-2001, 03:22 AM   #42
doohan
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Default Re: A Little Knowledge . . .

Don't be so naive...do you really think it would be possible to get a mole in his organization? Do you think it's as easy as just kidnapping him? Second of all, if you kill him you won't have 10 more take his place, that's a myth that is perpetuated thru the media. You won't have people that have his bank roll, connections to the underground, or resources. History has shown us that tip toeing around with terrorism only gets your toes blown off. Don't you think their were innocent German civilians in WW2 that lost there life? What were we supposed to do..let Hitler roll thru europe unabaded? No one likes collateral loss but in this case the other choices for dealing with this are useless options that will fail. Why would we bomb ireland?? Has the IRA bombed us? isn't that the UK's problem? Bad analogy.
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Old 09-15-2001, 07:01 AM   #43
starvingstudent
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Default Re: A Little Knowledge . . .

If you think getting a mole into his organization are hard, consider the chances of killing him, or CAPTURING him, with a B-52. The guy has probably _already_ left Afghanistan, and if he hasn't, he'll slip out as soon as the first bomb falls. There is absolutely ZERO chance that he'd sit and wait through an entire military campaign that could take months or years. He has an _international_ organization of supporters, not a specifically Afghan organization of supporters, remember? He's Yemeni in origin and holds no particular patriotism for Afghanistan. Afghanistan was a _conventient_ place for him over the past couple years, but if the US is bombing it flat, he'll find some other country that's convenient. And he'll wait there until we finally figure out what country he IS in, and we'll bomb that country flat, and he'll quietly slip across the border again. Repeat as desired until we make a policy that has a chance of accomplishing our goals.



Our only hope is, with compassion and such, convince one of his organization to become a double-agent. That will give us something to work with. Bombing Afghanistan might make us feel better, but it will not get us one INCH closer to our goals. Our goal is to GET the guy who caused the New York tragedy, right? Have we already forgotten that?



As for "those who take his place"--well, even if he dies, the money's still there, right? His international ring of supporters is still there. His right-hand man or someone like that can take control of the coffers, but they'll have a huge influx of low-level volunteers--the types who actually DO the suicide bombings--from people who lost family in our airstrikes. Think about it. We're shooting ourselves in the foot and not accomplishing anything with this action.
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Old 09-15-2001, 07:04 AM   #44
starvingstudent
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Default Re: Please don

The problem with that is that until about two or three years ago, both the US and Russia were pumping money and modern weaponry into the hands of the factions we supported in the Afghan civil war. Those guns haven't miraculously disappeared in the past couple years.



And most Muslim countries are reacting with indignation and unchecked support for the US because THIS ISN'T WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS. They're just as angry as most Christians would be if Hitler was held up to the world as an example of what "christianity" is.
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Old 09-15-2001, 07:16 AM   #45
luvmyvfr
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Default Re: A Little Knowledge . . .

I think your starfish analogy is very poor, as



1. Starfish don't eat fish, but crustaceans.

2. Fishermen (or divers) know that starfish regenerate, so they wouldn't cut them up.

3. Every farmer bombed doesn't have the money and connections to become a terrorist leader.

4. You comment about Ireland was STUPID and shows a severe lack of thought that you try to make up for with quantity of words. The differences between the governments involved in Afghanistan and Ireland are like those of night and day. I don't think the Taliban has a Scotland Yard trying to figure out where OBL is all the time and how to thwart his attacks.



Your logic is very flawed, and your arguments hold water like a sieve.



Do you think the U.S. would have a different policy if a group of Catholics (or any other Christian group, or white group, since you've been trying to sensationalize on racism in your arguments) in a hostile country with a government that was not recognized as legitimate by most of the world, and was not helpful to us in finding and punishing the terrorists, than that policy which we are forming in this situation?

Apples and Oranges, my friend, you need to see that, or you will remain a confused 20-something for another 10 years or so, upon which you will become a confused 30-something.

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Old 09-15-2001, 09:40 AM   #46
LimeSqueezr
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Default Re: One more time...

I agree our foreign policy was a contributing factor (let me emhasize that is not the same as saying our foreign policy is evil). And I can certainly imagine how certain people could do it. Whether they are "pure evil" or just misguided people with at least some legitimate gripes is an utterly moot point because such acts simply can't be tolerated, doesn't matter if Isama bin Laden or Tim McVeigh or the Sisters of Charity are committing them.



I never said otherwise. The discussion above was rather about whether we should take this opportunity to help implement a more democratic form of government in the countries these acts originate from, or whether because they are different cultures from ours every citizen there probably loves having a government of tyrannical fundamentalist looneys and thus we should stay out of their affairs and not "force our way of life" on them.
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Old 09-15-2001, 09:58 AM   #47
LimeSqueezr
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Default I *know* they don't see it that way...

I agree our foreign policy was a contributing factor (let me emhasize that is not the same as saying our foreign policy is evil). And I can certainly imagine how certain factions could do it. Whether they are "pure evil" or just misguided folks with at least some legitimate gripes is an utterly moot point because such acts simply cannot be tolerated, doesn't matter if Isama bin Laden or Tim McVeigh or the Sisters of Charity are committing them.



I never said otherwise. The discussion above was rather about whether we should take this opportunity to help implement a more democratic form of government in the countries these acts originate from, or whether because they are different cultures from ours every citizen there surely loves having a government of tyrannical fundamentalist looneys and thus we should stay out of their affairs and not "force our way of life" on them.
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Old 09-15-2001, 10:00 AM   #48
LimeSqueezr
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Default Sorry, double post

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Old 09-15-2001, 12:28 PM   #49
starvingstudent
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Default Re: I resent your implications . . .

I had not meant the racism implications to be aimed at you specifically, and if you took it that way, I apologize. But there IS a lot of racism out in the American populace right now--Muslim taxi drivers in New York have been randomly assaulted, and there was a riot outside of a mosque in Chicago (I'm not sure of the city, and I don't feel like finding a story again). I've heard a lot of people call for complete massacre and genocide in Afghanistan as retribution, and that really scares me. I just want to make sure that everybody thinks about their opinions to make sure they would act the same way if we were dealing with Catholic, caucasian terrorists (and the US and UK have NOT acted the same way with the IRA in the past).



First, remember that Afghanistan is just coming out of a 20-year civil war with the Taliban as the dominant faction of the day. Many people have tried to fight the Taliban--that's what's been happening for twenty years--but they lost the day. The Taliban HARDLY has unanimous support from across the country, but they are dominant military power, and that's why they hold the government right now.



Now, ask yourself a question: how many Afghans know where Bin Laden is located? I doubt there are roadsigns that lead to his hideout, whereever it is. How many Americans knew where Timothy McVeigh or the Unabomber were when the FBI was looking for them? I would have loved to turn them in, but I had no idea where they were hiding. But I'm glad no one bombed my hometown because I couldn't find McVeigh.
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Old 09-16-2001, 12:43 PM   #50
numbnutz
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Default Re: Willow rund will not be rescheduled

oh damn...didnt know that. Love Willows..and VIR looks to be a monster too in its inaugural running. I hope GP is on tonight..I know WSB isnt coming around till the 30th of this month..Hell..ill put my one- piece on(no..not a swimsuit...I look better in a thong) and go stafe some canyons and feel lucky to be alive. R-6 always makes me feel like myself again.
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