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Old 08-04-2001, 11:03 AM   #81
alexismachine
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Default Re: Actually, you can compare the Confederates..

TWO Hellcats!? Ironmike, that's more than any man deserves. You should give one to me!



Actually I've been looking pretty seriously at them because they seem the perfect cruiser for me. I ride a SV650 and though it isn't the fastest thing on the road, it will devour a set of twisties. My wife rides a Honda Shadow so you can imagine it gets kinda boring (and a little painful for me) for us to ride long distances together. What I need is a cruiser for when we are riding together. I was lucky enough to put in about 100 miles on a friend's Dyna Super Glide T-sport (cams, screamin eagle all over it) and I've gotta say I was very impressed except for the lack of clearance. I found myself grinding the pegs on a regular basis. I'm hoping the new V-Rod will turn out to be somewhat more performance oriented than the current crop from HD. As cool as the V-Rod looks, I'm not sure it would turn heads like your Hellcat though =)



Oh yeah...that Confederate GT...128 hp, 132 lb-ft of torque! Wow.
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Old 08-04-2001, 11:20 AM   #82
Rob-SV650
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Default Re: Future of V-Max and other ramblings...

Yeah, I saw some other posts where you mentioned you owned a V-Max after I had already posted that.



Did you ever try a Sabre? It's a lot more comfortable than the Magna stock, and with the addition of a Corbin seat with backrest, it's completely comfortable for both rider and passenger.



To determine what catagory to place a bike in, I look more at rake angle. Most sportbikes have a rake of under 26 degrees, standards and big dual-sports about 28-30, and cruisers over 32 degrees. This is why I call most of the so-called standards out today "sportbikes without plastic". I love the engine in my SV650 but the handling (25 degrees of rake) is really biased toward what I refer to as "alternately scraping pegs on either sides of the bike as quickly as possible". It would be more enjoyable as a daily rider if it was more stable. The V-Max at 29 degrees (the same as the Nighthawk 750) is solidly a standard, regardless of its goofy fake gas tank and blower.



Engine type doesn't really determine cruiser or not, more like "Harley style bike" or not, in my opinion. The lopsided bias toward low end torque seems to have only become popular since everyone decided they wanted a Harley or a knockoff. Before that the Japanese built engines with more balanced output.



The V-Rod has similar power and torque characteristics to a V65. I still have to disagree with you that that makes a "blender motor". 74 ft/lbs is no mouse motor. Granted it's lower and peakier than a VTX, but that's a relative statement.
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Old 08-04-2001, 11:51 AM   #83
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Default Re: VTX is still the biggest and baddest

1) 3,000 RPM, where the V-Rod makes fine torque, is hardly "revving the engine like a sport bike".

2) The V-Rod has less blubber to move.

3) Since the V-Rod can work over a bigger RPM range, it can be geared lower.



The VTX might well walk away until the rider has to shift, at that point the V-Rod rider will simply stay in gear and let his engine breathe its 107 HP. Seeya! Ditto for the V-Max.



Low end torque is largely a displacement issue. The V-Rod's torque output (74 ft/lbs) is actually pretty good for an 1100cc engine in semi-mild tune. Maybe they'll punch it out and detune it in the future for people who like slower turning, torque monster engines, or design a bigger block version.
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Old 08-04-2001, 12:28 PM   #84
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Default Re: Future of V-Max and other ramblings...

No, actually Honda didn't offer the Sabre until '84, and I wanted a new bike in '83, so I bought the Magna. I've never had the chance to ride a Sabre.



I guess the only way to find out if the V-rod is really a cruiser or not is to wait and see what type of enthusiasts end up buying, and more importantly, keeping the V-rod. Of course there undoubtedly be many who buy it as part of whole Harley status thing. If it's truely a cruiser, cruiser enthusiasts will want to keep the bike long after they've bought one.
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Old 08-04-2001, 12:28 PM   #85
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Default The V-Max belongs

Look, the reason the V-max is here is because when MO asked if we wanted to see any additions to a VTX and V-Rod comparo, a lot of us said throw in the V-Max. I for one wolud like to see how it stacks up. I think that the Max and it's rabid fans (that's a good thing) are making this bike a classic - I think it's the Vincent Black Shadow of our age.



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Old 08-04-2001, 12:35 PM   #86
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Default Re: VTX is still the biggest and baddest

Like I said, us cruiser enthusiast don't want to have to rev the engine to get massive power. If I wanted a bike with a 9 or 10 grand redline, I would've kept my V-Max, or I'd buy a sport bike. I want to just twist the throttle, in any gear, at any RPM, and go. For this, the VTX has no equal.
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Old 08-04-2001, 02:39 PM   #87
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Default Re: Future of V-Max and other ramblings...

It's probably going to be the same people who buy V-Maxes or ride old V65's. People who want more performance than the typical cruiser offers. Since a well done V4 or twin doesn't buzz or annoy at higher RPM, they won't mind letting it rev a bit. People who are happy with "traditional" cruiser power will probably enjoy not getting gouged by the dealers and avoid it for now. I don't care how good it is, it's not worth 20 grand.



Maybe they should do a V-Max vs. V65's vs. V-Rod shootout instead - while I might still call the V-Rod and Magna cruisers, I agree that high 10 second quarter mile muscle bikes will appeal to different people than 12 and 13 second power cruisers.
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Old 08-04-2001, 02:39 PM   #88
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Default Re: Open Cruisers Found on Dyno

Actually, they should have thrown in the dyno runs from a VTR or TL-S for a bit of perspective. Taking a peek at the dyno charts from the test of the above bikes and the one from the new Harley, there isn't that much difference. Take a little off of the top end and add it to the torque curve and there you go. But then again I always thought that cruisers were all about low end grunt, which the VTX has definately gotten "biggie sized."



I'm no cruiser rider, but I'll be willing to bet cash dollars that in a back to back BLIND test (with no preconceived notions about Harleys and Hondas) that the VTX with that extra 10 lbs to carry and extra 22 ft/lbs of torque at a delivery point 3200 rpm lower will be a far superior ride to the Harley.
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Old 08-04-2001, 02:44 PM   #89
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Default Re: Open Cruisers shoot out.

Amen, brother. If you want to invest go check out the Wall Street Journal, this place is about riding bikes!!
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Old 08-04-2001, 02:57 PM   #90
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Default Re: Only REAL cruiser here is VTX

He's right, when you're looking at bare numbers you have to look at both the Torque/hp and rpm numbers. The Harley makes peak torque at over 6K, the Honda at just over 3K. Which one of those would be more of a cruiser powerband? Doesn't matter, how long will it take Honda and Suzuki to put a bored out version of the VTR/RC51 or TL motors in a cruiser frame and blast the competition outta the water?



The Japanese manufacturers have made overweight underpowered farm implements because that is what the competition is. If HP is where it's a there's plenty in Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki's closet.



You know that the Japanese have been making 4-valve watercooled engines for quite a bit longer than Harley. They've just opened themselves up for a bit of embarassment, IMHO. Don't try to compete when you can't, Harley lives on their name, trying to sell by using numbers will work this year, until the 2003's come out and smoke the V-Rod like it was a VR1000.
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