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Old 08-04-2001, 08:07 AM   #71
Kragma
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Default Re: Open Cruisers Found on Dyno

They did and I'm sure we'll keep hearing about it. I'd not be surprised to see it mentioned in the bike's marketing. But the fact is that Porsche makes as much money selling engineering as it does selling cars. They'll sell engineering to anyone and have for a long time. For instance, Hyuandai's cars are partially a product of Porsche's engineering and design.



Of course, Porsche's influence on the V-Rod means the bike is metric and Harley guys probably don't own a single metric wrench.
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Old 08-04-2001, 08:16 AM   #72
panthercity
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Default Re: Open Cruisers Found on Dyno

Wrong me boy-o! Many of them have a full set of metric crescents and pipe wrenches... ;^)
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Old 08-04-2001, 08:26 AM   #73
tomcas929
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Default Re: Only REAL cruiser here is VTX

The V-rod IS a cruiser. And it has as much if not more torque than the Harley twin-cam. You should do your research before spouting out about something you know nothing about. You should check the dyno charts in this website right here.



BTW - I am no Harley fan or even a cruiser fan but just thought I'd respond to your incorrect posting that the V-rod has no torque. Sure, most of the others you mention have more torque than the V-rod but not the Harley twin cams as you mention. I don't know if I like the V-rod yet but it sure is a step in the right direction for Harley.
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Old 08-04-2001, 08:57 AM   #74
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Default Re: Future of V-Max and other ramblings...

In case I didn't make it apparent in my post, I'm not a cruiser guy, I'm a standard guy. So I like the V-Max, and I like what Harley has done with the V-Rod engine, although the bike itself is too raked out for my taste. And I judge what type a bike is by the steering geometry, not the engine. So by that method, the V-Rod is a cruiser, the V-Max is a standard, and most of the bikes commonly called standards today are actually sportbikes without plastic (including my SV650). A Honda Rebel 450 is still a cruiser even though it has a fairly high revving parallel twin and doesn't have much torque.



I like V-twins and V4's - hence my interest here, hate high pitched buzziness (read: inline 4's), and hate seating positions that are leaned forward or back much. I like fast acceleration without having to wind out the engine, but also like the option to let it rev, and I like good handling as relates to real-world riding, meaning a good balance between stability and agility. In practice this means I like a very upright standard style bike with a big displacement V4 or twin. I'm intrigued by the new Harley engine because I hope they'll put it in an upright bike eventually.



Take a ride on a V-Max or V65 sometime before you call all engines that don't wheeze or break above 6,000 RPM "blender motors". I own a 10,000 RPM redlined '84 V65 Sabre and I can tell you it feels (and kinda sounds) like a small block V8. It rips your arms out of their sockets from idle to redline, you don't notice the weight of a passenger, and without looking you can only roughly guess what engine speed you're at because it feels and sounds great everywhere, unlike (air-cooled) Harleys that feel like they're going to fly apart at 5,000 RPM or buzzy, whining inline 4's. It never buzzes, shakes, or whines, but it still has "texture" - you can feel the pulses. Trust me, you'll never think "blender" with this engine. The V-Rod's power and torque curves are pretty similar to the V65's, and even its sound is like a cross between a V65 and a Harley - so I can call it a leap forward based on what I like anyway.



If Harley punched the V-Rod out to 1400cc, could that maybe solve your torque issue?
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:00 AM   #75
tomcas929
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Default Re: VTX is still the biggest and baddest

How many times will you say the same thing!? I've read your opinion at least 5 times in different threads! I agree the v-max isn't a cruiser. But the V-rod most certainly is! I'm not even a cruiser fan but you keep babbling about the V-rod not being a cruiser. Just because Harley finally gave a bike a decently powered engine doesn't mean it's not a cruiser. To me a cruiser is more about layed back ergonomics than engine characteristics. And have you even ridden a V-rod yet? How do you know what the characteristics of the engine will be like? If you cared to do your research you would see that the Vrod makes higher TORQUE ratings at ANY rpm than its Harley twin-cam brother. And the HP line only crosses the torque line at about 5300 rpm. So to me that mean you get both low rpm torque and high rpm horsepower all in one engine. If you want a v-rod to feel like a typical slow cruiser just don't rev it about 5300 rpm and you will have the same characteristics of the typical cruiser. I haven't see the dyno charts for the VTX so I won't comment on something I don't know about. And I do love the VTX, it would probably be my choice if I were a cruiser guy. But the V-rod will certainly out-cruiser and out-power the VTX. To me the only drawback of the V-rod is the price.
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:18 AM   #76
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Default Re: Open Cruisers Found on Dyno

"RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT"



And who are you referring to as 'squids' with a statement like that?
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:36 AM   #77
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Default Re: Future of V-Max and other ramblings...

I know what V-4's feel like. My last bike was an '89 V-Max, and the one before was an '83 V-65 Magna. And I know what you're saying about the way the V-4 delivers it's power, they have both bottom end and top end. My problem with those two bikes is they weren't comfortable. The VTX is.



You base whether or not a bike fits into the cruiser catagory by it's wheelbase. I say it's a combination of wheelbase and engine type. The V-rod does have a long wheelbase, but it's engine screems standard. When it comes to bottom end torque, the V-rod doesn't compare to any of the big inch cruisers. When you're forced to twist the engine in order to make power, it's a blender motor, and it just doesn't fit in with the cruisers. Cruisers are synonimus with torque, and the V-rod just doesn't cut the mustard. The VTX however, symbolizes torque. It's the torque god. Bow to the almighty!
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:40 AM   #78
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Default Re: Only REAL cruiser here is VTX

But where in the RPM range is the V-rod making it's torque? The twin cam engines make their torque at a much lower RPM than does the V-rod. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about!
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:50 AM   #79
Grampi
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Default Re: VTX is still the biggest and baddest

Like I said, many think the V-rod is a cruiser, but cruisers don't have engines that turn 9 grand. What defines a cruiser is defined partly by wheelbase, and partly by engine type. When you have to rev the motor to get it to make power, it's a blender motor and it doesn't belong in a cruiser. It's bottom end torque aint squat compared to any of the big inch true cruisers. Put the V-rod and VTX side by side, both running at 2 grand in any given gear, and twist the grip, what do you think is going to happen? The VTX will walk away quickly. That's what a cruiser is all about, not revving the enigne like a sport bike.
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Old 08-04-2001, 09:55 AM   #80
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Default Actually, you can compare the Confederates..

..go to www.dynoguy.com click on "big dogs", "over 100hp", and review the dyno charts for Confederate Hellcat No. 1 (113"/1852cc S&S), No.2 (120"S/1967cc Merch), Confederate America GT (120"HO/1967cc Merch), and Confederate Wildcat (100"/1640cc S&S). These were tested in public; random examples of different displacement motors, fresh off the assembly line in approved (49 state) DOT/EPA trim.



All are pretty good examples of what may well be the maximized potential of the evo-style big twin; to squeeze more performance out is, of course, quite possible, but a point of diminishing returns in terms of reliability is reasonably foreseeable. Does the twin cam design hold more potential..? To some degree, I would think so; but, not a significant amount in comparison to the potential inherent in a water-cooled overhead cam design. I think the future of the performance oriented cruiser will see a blending and transfusion of certain sportbike virtues - especially in terms of vehicle weight reduction, handling, and aerodynamics. I see the future as stimulating - provided governmental intrusion is minimized.



I have two Hellcats and I find them outrageous fun. But I am under no delusion that they are any real match for my Blackbird (at ludicrous speed or in the real twisties).... but that's apples & oranges, an inappropriate comparison.



If it's got two wheels, it's all good!
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