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allbikesbiker 06-22-2006 02:09 AM

Re: Deja Vu
first post.

sure, I'll give up motorcycling when polititicans give up lying.

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 03:02 AM

Re: Deja Vu
No, no, no! You see, once the government steps in and forces motorcycle helmets on to everyone's head, history has shown, that the government will take no additional steps. They clearly will not butt in any further.

I think it's time that the government eliminated ALL risks for us as I am obviously unable to make that decision for myself.

jkgooch 06-22-2006 03:05 AM

Re: Deja Vu
You're giving the gov't too much credit for original thought. Driving this, as with helmet laws and seatbelt laws, is the insurance industry lobby.

Soon, we'll be required to pay premiums not for 'coverage' but for 'your own protection.' It's about a half a step removed from the mob right now.

jesskauffman 06-22-2006 03:09 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Interesting article. Maybe if we take away all these risky personal choices, we'll all be healthier AND bored. And then still die.

Last time I checked, All of the greatest leaders in history had a tendency to engage in what others deemed risky behavior. Which is why you won't see many of our current politicians highlighted in the history books in the future for their great deeds and heroic leadership.

oldtim 06-22-2006 03:21 AM

Re: Deja Vu
You will be riding for a long time then...

oldtim 06-22-2006 03:33 AM

Re: Deja Vu
The reduction of injury and suffering is a good goal of any government but...there is always a but... There is always a conflict between that and the rights of individuals to put them selves at risk. Motorcycles, rock climbing, white water rafting (a guy just died on one of our white water rivers here in ID), flying in small planes, base jumping (a base jumper also died here in Idaho this spring) and so on. Where does it stop?

Citizens must support the nation but the nation must support individual citizens and part of that IMO, is allowing citizens to actually risk their own welfare and safety by engaging in behavior and activities that others feel are an unreasonable risk. If the safety folks were serious they would focus on stuff that really matters such as the lack of affordable health and preventative care for all citizens. That would save more lives every year that all the helmets in the world.

Buzglyd 06-22-2006 03:36 AM

Re: Deja Vu
I've only seen one or two bikes here in the D.F. Talk about risky behavior!

Driving in Mexico City makes Manhattan look civilized.

I guess ol' Bloomberg is going to aggressively go into people's homes and rip them off of their couches.

Guard those Krispy Kremes KP!

gbrummett 06-22-2006 03:38 AM

Minimize his chances of injury

[b]So if Mr. Jacob Sullum wants to follow his own advice and minimize his chances of injury, he should only drive around in a full size Hummer while also wearing a helmet and armor![b]

bigdx 06-22-2006 03:41 AM

Re: Deja Vu
The article is spot on.

Nobody will have a motorcycle accident when nobody rides a motorcycle. Very sound logic. I may not like it, but it 100% true and may well be legislation one day.

The power ranger pro helmet-legislation crowd better realize that by empowering the government to force one form legislation on the motorcycle population, you empower them to enforce any type of legislation on us.

The EPA is well on its way to outlaw any type of modification to motorcycles, even something as benign as altering gear ratio or air filters. Soon we will have legislated horsepower limits and speed restrictors on motorcycles. And with the EPA banning all mods to motorcycles, youÂ’ll have to ride what you can buy Â… no aftermarket goodies to increase horsepower.

Ironically, the majority of folks I know that ride helmet-less (and most I know that ride wearing helmets) will not be too concerned about 100hp or 100mph limits on bikes. I most certainly am not.

But I can see the power rangers sh1tting themselves over this one though Â… I guess then it will be an opportunity for the previously-helmet-less crowd to call you stupid and support the government encroaching on what you believe to be your rights.

seruzawa 06-22-2006 04:22 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Govt original thought? Scary stuff. I'm trying to think of any govt social program that ever achieved its goals and am unable to think of one. Look at our drug policy. Street drugs are more availible and cheaper than ever. Social Security even subsidizes drug addicts. And tens of thousands of non-violent offenders languish in jail for no other reason than the cops finds it easier (and safer) to arrrest and prosecute users than go after the really dangerous people of society.... like US Senators and people who print photographs of Helen Thomas. You only need to see how well the homes of the cops on the drug squad are furnished to see just how the WOD has corrupted Law Enforcement and ultimately achiveved nothing except create another class of well-funded criminal gangs.

And people still trust the govt to protect them? LOL!

On second thought, since the true purpose of any govt program is to expand and perpetuate itself then most govt programs have succeeded beyond all expectations.

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 04:28 AM

Re: Deja Vu
I agree.

lwatcdr 06-22-2006 04:29 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Okay but only if they first outlaw tobacco products, alcohol, sex outside of marriage, and hand guns.

After you push those laws through and enforce them then you can start outlawing motorcycles.

This could be fun.

seruzawa 06-22-2006 04:35 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Few people really stop to consider that the power they so freely wish to wield against others will be used against themselves at some point.

Do people really think that do-gooders empowered with the ability to intefere in the individual's right to self-determination can ever be sated? History shows that they cannot. The ability to wield power over the lives of individuals is very sweet to those who think they know what's best for everyone else. And they never stop, no matter how much destruction they cause. Look at the inner cities to get a clue. Do-gooders have done to black America what slavery and Jim Crow never achieved in 200 years. And they did it in one generation.

Fenton 06-22-2006 04:36 AM

Re: Deja Vu
"Ironically, the majority of folks I know that ride helmet-less (and most I know that ride wearing helmets) will not be too concerned about 100hp or 100mph limits on bikes. I most certainly am not."

100 horses is almost a wet dream for the helmet-less folks. How about just full face helmets and a db limit on pipes?

seruzawa 06-22-2006 04:44 AM

Re: Deja Vu
All your cigarettes are belong to us!

bigdx 06-22-2006 04:58 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Horsepower limits, db limits, speed restrictors, helmet laws … they are all coming. It would be naïve to believe they are not.

You are probably too ignorant to realize you have just substantiated my post. While youÂ’ll laugh at us non full-face helmet wearers being forced to wear full-face helmets, IÂ’ll be laughing at you brightly colored power ranger crowd when the fastest sport bike available is significantly slower than a 250 ninja. Try acting out your Rossi fantasy when a Toyota Pruis blasts past you on the road.

WeÂ’ll both be crying when motorcycles are banned altogether or restricted to such a level so that nobody can get any enjoyment out of it, but by that time we will be powerless to stop the well meaning politicians that try an save us from ourselves.

BTW, I believe there is a db limit on pipes already, but since I run stock pipes it has no relevance to me.

maladg 06-22-2006 05:02 AM

Re: Minimize his chances of injury
Yo, gbrummett....need to read ole Jake again. He be in our corner, the freedom corner.

No matter if you be leftie (how sad) or rightie (a little better), REASON Mag will drive you nuts with liberterian POV.

bigdx 06-22-2006 05:06 AM

Re: Deja Vu
"Few people really stop to consider that the power they so freely wish to wield against others will be used against themselves at some point."

If the members on this board are indicative of the average motorcyclist in the US, motorcycling as we know it is as good as dead Â…

mscuddy 06-22-2006 05:23 AM

Re: UN Motorcycle Ban's the United Nations...Bloomberg is a pawn.

Vote LaRouche in '08!

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 05:26 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Let's not forget the groups that want to ban:

Fast Food


Suburban sprawl


Knives (Including steak knives...unfortunately that isn't a joke)

Private Property

All Pets (viewed as animal slavery by some)

Air traffic


Plus much, much more!

Buzglyd 06-22-2006 05:31 AM

Re: Deja Vu
We need Chuck Norris more than ever right now!

ejis 06-22-2006 05:32 AM

Re: Deja Vu
I can't believe I'm about to say this - but I actually agree with you, though I'm not quite as cynical as many here. Hp and mph limits do already exist in "gentlenmens agreements" and law in some countries/eras, but they have been, are - and will likely continue to be - largely irrelavent as all a manufacturer has to do is simply claim a lower number for power as was done decades ago with cars.

Speed limiters are another story, and I don't doubt that there will be a time when we are all limited to a maximum speed based on where we are; if you on a 55 mph limited highway, then the computer won't allow you to go faster than that. This kind of technology is already being tested, along with the transmitter that a LEO can use to shut down any car they want to.

And most (if not all states) do have noise limits for motor vehicles (cars are not immune), it's just that no one enforces them. See the other troll-and-flame fest for more on this though...

seruzawa 06-22-2006 05:33 AM

Re: UN Motorcycle Ban
Ah BS. Everybody knows that it's the Bilderbergers that call all the shots.

Andonyx 06-22-2006 05:35 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Just a quick note for people unfamiliar with Reason. Reason is the unofficial spokes-magazine for the libertarian movement. They are unabashedly AGAINST government rgulation or government bans on things like this (And guns and drugs, and various other things) Hmmm, they're kind of like hell's angels in Madras shirts.

Anyway if you read Mr.s Sullom's comments or the various poster's comments as pro-ban you're missing some sarcasm.

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 05:36 AM

They rally round tha family! With a pocket full of shells!
Bulls On Parade Mutha F*cka!

Oh wait...that's "de la Rocha" not "LaRouche" .

um...never mind...carry on.

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 05:39 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Oh, trust me, I NEVER miss sarcasm. The article was clearly jabbing at Bloomberg.

I've voted Libertarian for the past three presidential elections.

BrowningBAR 06-22-2006 05:41 AM

Re: Deja Vu
A good round-house kick to all the dirty hippies and religious zealots!

Long live Norris!

mscuddy 06-22-2006 05:43 AM

Re: UN Motorcycle Ban
And the Rothschilds! The Queen and her heroin peddling cronies! The Beef lobby!

What ever happened to old Lyndon? He still in the can?

Thruxomatic 06-22-2006 05:50 AM

Re: Deja Vu
"The power ranger pro helmet-legislation crowd better realize that by empowering the government to force one form legislation on the motorcycle population, you empower them to enforce any type of legislation on us. "

Time for your tinfoil hat to go back on.

Your argument lost the minute the first stop sign was posted and the world didn't subsequently collapse in a wave of fascist dictatorships. A stop sign is a restriction on our freedoms, and if that restriction just gives government a blank check to go whole hog ... then why don't we have an American dicta ... uh, never mind. ;)

The reality is that some laws are reasonable and some aren't. The reasonable ones pass precisely because they are reasonable and the unreasonable ones die on the vine for lack of support in most cases. Unreasonable laws do get passed, but usually due to corruption, complacency on the part of the public or because of a good PR campaign supporting one side of the argument.

Legally, motorcyclists aren't doing badly, at least according to the CNN segment posted here. A large chunk of the US states don't even have a helmet law and many state legislatures just got rid of the laws they did have, so your 'freedom' appears only to be as far away as the state line if you feel too oppressed by The Man. What motorcyclists suffer from is a huge PR deficit within the public eye.

So ... what are you going to do to do your part?

You say you drive defensively and haven't been in an accident in 15 years. Good for you because that's part of the solution. Defensive driving and driver education reduce accidents, thereby reducing injuries and show the cager public that we are serious about doing our part.

Do you wear safety gear? It doesn't sound like you do, but that is also part of the solution. I wear a full suit whenever I'm riding and have added reflective tape to my bike and my helmet. I even carry a reflective vest to wear at night (black bike, black riding gear). If you stop at driving defensively, thinking you've done your part, and don't go the extra step, you are missing out on the key point: public perception. Wear no safety gear and not only are you showing up in emergency rooms more often and suffering more severe injuries, but those EMTs, Doctors and nurses who are busting their humps to keep you alive are going to go home and tell their kiddies and friends about the 'organ donor' who came in last night with preventable injuries ... again. Even if you don't get into an accident, every car you pass or who passes you is thinking the same thing when they see you without safety gear - what an idiot.

Do you go the extra mile to be accomodating to that cager public that is threatening to take away our fun? From your posts, I would have to say I doubt it. Belligerence, whether that shows up in noisy pipes or the 'I'll do what I fsking well want' attitude you seem to exhibit ad nauseum just makes enemies of precisely the people we need to be our friends: John Q Public. I don't care how much of a freedom freak, Ayn Rand worshipper or Easy Rider wannabe you think you are, if you behave in public like you do on the forums (and many riders seem to have an attitude like yours), then you are hurting our cause more than you are helping it.

Finally, in a general sense we have to get realistic. Cagers outnumber us 10 to 1 and while we know that most injuries or fatalities on bikes are caused by a cager turning left in front of a bike illegally ... they are never, ever going to admit their role in our injuries or fatalites while they have another potential explanation to latch onto. Human nature just doesn't work that way; if people can blame someone else for their own shortcomings, they will. Our best defense is to avoid those accidents in the first place through defensive driving, but also to ensure that if the accident is going to happen, that we make the news reels and front pages wearing full gear, riding at or below the speed limit, with a valid licence and with a history of rider training and with absolutely no doubt that the fault for the accident was the cager's.

bigdx 06-22-2006 05:54 AM

Yawn ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

bigdx 06-22-2006 06:02 AM

Re: Deja Vu
I have read about the speed restrictors that act on the speed limit of the road you are on. Scary stuff. Apart from it being downright dangerous, I am not comfortable having each and every movement I make tracked by the powers that be.

As far as enforcing current laws. I saw an article where Arlen Ness was fined 5K for selling a motorcycle without an EPA mandated sticker under the seat.

God help us when they start, because you could potentially get a $10 000 per day fine if you bike is not EPA emissions compliant. A failed air sensor can cause that Â…

Thruxomatic 06-22-2006 06:03 AM

Re: Yawn ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ah, still the same old bigdx ... a child in adult clothing. Nice to see you haven't changed in my time off.

seruzawa 06-22-2006 06:04 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Oh sure. It's reasonable that some case worker can go to your house and take your children from you and then force you to prove your innocence before you get your kids back... al based on an anonymous tip.

How's the kool-aid?

Thruxomatic 06-22-2006 06:15 AM

Re: Deja Vu
No successes? You just have to dig deeper.

1. Welfare in Canada sees 90% of the people applying back off of welfare and in the workforce within 90 days. That sounds like a success to me.

2. 99% of AISH recipients don't starve to death or are a financial burden to their families, so considering AISH was built to keep people incapable of working from being tossed aside like garbage, it seems to be working, too.

3. Universal Health Care literally covers 100% of Canadians at about half the per capita cost of US equivalent care. Even with the inefficient government spending you freedom freaks rant about, this is a steal of a deal. No profit = cheap.

4. Millions of cars, bikes and trucks ride accident free on streets and roadways every day without an accident, which is a testament to the ultimate public work - the traffic system.

6. Pick a bridge, any bridge, and it is a public work.

7. Mediation saves millions, if not billions of dollars in court costs every year and is a 100% public work.

8. Every single country with gun control has seen their mortality rate due to firearms decline. 100% success rate.

I could go on, but I have to go to work. Government isn't all bad. Business isn't all good. Not even charities and nonprofits are all good.

Thruxomatic 06-22-2006 06:45 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Did you not read my post?

Some moderately unreasonable laws make it on the books and I fully admit it, but the court of public opinion keeps most of the truly ludicrous attempts to take away freedoms from happening. Try to pass a law legalizing pedophilia and your politcal career will end the day the legislation is announced, for example.

Public opinion can be courted and changed, though, and this is why Roman fathers could kill their children without issue while we have the situation you describe. The public opinion of children has gone from "property" to "guileless innocents in need of protection" and so the laws change to reflect that shift in public thinking. You may disagree with social workers invading your home on an anonymous tip, but enough of the public agree with the practice that you hear very few outcries about it.

Which is precisely my point. Non-riders have an opinion of us, and because they outnumber us, they could very well force their opinions on us if they wanted to. I doubt they would actually pass any law banning bikes altogether because getting enough people to support that stance would be very difficult, but all the same, it doesn't hurt to court public opinion a bit to sway them to our side, does it? Acting like a jacka$$ on your bike just drives more people into the anti-bike camp, which is already large enough as it is, thank you very much.

seruzawa 06-22-2006 06:51 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Your gun control claim is an outright lie. Therefore everything you say is unreliable.

In fact socialist nations have a track record of being the most murderous nations in history... Nazi Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, Cuba....etc etc. You canucks just do it more quietly by denying the elderly dialysis, etc etc.

And go help you if you need a hip replacement.

bigdx 06-22-2006 06:55 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Some individuals feel better when they are not burdened by the responsibility to have to think for themselves. Not surprisingly, they consider folks who do like to think for themselves as a danger to society.

Fortunately, they seem to be a minority in the US Â… I suspect they well represented in Canada and many European countries though.

Thruxomatic 06-22-2006 07:02 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Hell, driverless cars are coming, so you had better learn to live without the daily fix of 'man melding with machine' that you have with a bike. Nothing you are going to say or do is going to stop that development after the successful pilotless car trials in CA, so all your arguing is just pi$$ing into the wind.

You might as well learn to read, because you'll have lots of time to do it on the commute while your car drives you.

ejis 06-22-2006 07:12 AM

Re: Deja Vu
There's a big difference between these autodrive controlled access highways and full autonomy. It will be very difficult to turn the entire road system, including neighborhoods, rural roads - not to mention parking lots, driveways and private streets - into an automagically controlled system where things like wildlife, pets and children must be accounted for.

In the near-er future, I would imagine that special lanes on highways could be used for autodriving where the speed limits can be higher, accidents could be minimized, and congestion will be less of a problem. This probably won't hurt non-equiped cars/bikes too much, except that there may be fewer lanes available, similar to HOV.

Personally, I find interstate travel so dull that having an option for autodrive wouldn't be horrible, especially if it saves time. Note I said option.

bigdx 06-22-2006 07:13 AM

Re: Deja Vu
Funny thing is, he gives this whole hoopla how the system will protect the rights of bikers, yet law abiding firearm owners have had most of their right removed taken away Â… forever. He then proceeds to quote fictitious statistics to defend his governmentÂ’s action in removing right from a huge portion of citizens. HeÂ’ll be spouting the same lies when bikers lose their rights.

Yep, looks like a Canuck, stinks like a Canuck, lies like a Canuck Â…

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