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-   -   EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs (http://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-vs-world/150-epa-sets-new-standards-for-motorcycles-atvs.html)

wingdave 11-28-2000 01:16 PM

testify gabe!
 
I'm with you gabe.

I'll be damned if my machine-guns mounted to the fairing of my goldwing are gonna be gotten by them damn tree huggers!



One more in the list of people over reacting to emissions laws.

Oh no.. we might have to use the new laws as excuses to get new "50 state" motorscooters. I needed an excuse anyway..

zach 11-28-2000 02:53 PM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
I'm all for sensible emission standards. However it's too bad that laws are usually heavily influenced by alot of FUD(fear, uncertainty, doubt), and misinformation on all sides.
Yes, industrial sources still contribute alot of pollution to our air and water, but so do cars / motorcycles / atv's / boats / lawnmowers / weedwackers etc.
I have yet to see someone here post *real* data on what pollution comes from where. I don't have much *real* data either - why? Simple, how can someone get the truth with all the B.S. that is spewed left and right.
Some simple facts are not too hard to come by though
Newer pollution regs for cars and trucks are based on a grams of each pollutant family per mile basis, older regs were strictly ppm(parts per million for each pollutant family) for the exhaust gas. The new method is clearly a better measurment - a nice analogy is IM-240 measures lap times based on how fast the bike runs a lap, vs the old method of measuring lap times based upon how loud the engine is when the bike is standing still.(yea a bit of a stretch but not far off)
A properly operating cat can reduce HCs by a factor of 10 to 100 vs. no cat at all(reduction by a factor of 10-20 for engines tuned for clean burning, more if engine is less aimed at clean air).


Addition of basic clean air equipment does not raise the price of a vehicle, except in very competitive price markets. The motorcycle industry is not very competitive price wise. Companies already price thier products at the highest level that they think we will pay. If they were wrong and overprice, we see sales and end of the year incentives. If they were wrong and underprice it seems as though nobody can buy one. Emissions equipment will only affect the price of underpriced vehicles(can anyone say Harley's). Yes, CA vehicles currently have a premium attached to them, but that's only because they can get away with it across the board(Cost of living in CA is higher than most of the country, and no land price is not based upon EPA regs on your scoot).
Large emissions gains can be had for minimal cost on unregulated vehicles. Why? Simple, emissions equipment has a relatively steep slope of diminishing returns. This is nearly identical to getting more power out of your factory bike. You can get noticably more power with new exhaust & aircleaner on most bikes, but getting additional power beyond that will cost alot of money per HP gained.
Why should recreational vehicles not be required to follow the same set of rules as passenger vehicles? Why should street bikes be held to a different set of rules than cars? Motorcycles are not clean simply due to high mpg! Remember that newer regs (IM-240) requires vehicles to put out less than x grams of pollution per mile traveled.

roadload 11-28-2000 02:57 PM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
You are right about the Greenland Iceland thing.

Though whoever posted....I think I Am Going For A ride....I respond....You Know It is A F&*KING EXCELLENT DAY FOR A RIDE.

Gabe 11-28-2000 08:39 PM

Don't make me use sarcasm again!
 
But, holy moe-ly! Another psychic! And you know who I voted for! Gadzooks!



"Be real! Bureaucracies of any sort exist to perpetuate themselves!" That's right! The ONLY purpose of a beauracracy is to self perpetuate. No matter that NO civilized society of more than a few thousand people has ever existed in recorded history without one, but since you and psychic Bob have decided we don't need one, I guess we can do without.



Yep, I don't need the DMV to issue drivers licenses or vehicle registrations. Just let anybody hop in a car and drive away! And parole officers- those busybodies! We don't need to keep track of rapists and pimps!



Man, I sure did hate getting my GI bill money, especially every month, the same amount, on time. And who needs small business loans, or stock market regulation, or the Pentagon, or the FDIC? If your bank folds and you lose your life savings, it's your own fault!



Sure there's waste, fraud, and mismanagement. Sure, there's corruption, useless departments, (and just as much pork is pushed by republicans as democrats, don't lie to yourself!) entrenched useless bodies and other problems. But would you really rather live in a country with no Governement? Why not move to Somalia or Albania? No government to get in the way of your dreams there!



BTW, nice use of "vitriolic". I had to look it up! Why can't the GOP get smart guys like you to run for president?






ZRXRy 11-29-2000 04:38 AM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
Well, even on my ZRX 1100 or 700 lb Concours, ridden fairly hard and fast, I generally managed about 40 mpg or so. How many of those economy cars that claim higher mileage ratings actually get 40 mpg when used in the real world? Still, I'll admit, for the weight of the average bike and the size of engine involved, we could do a lot better.

basel1120 11-29-2000 08:49 AM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
Well that settles it. I was misled by the extensive air quality testing done at Yellowstone. What was I thinking? We shoulda just relied on your nose.

Daniel_Gerous 11-30-2000 10:31 AM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
Industry HAS reduced it's polution in the last 30 years, at least in the US. The companies moved most of the factories into third world countries, where they can pollute as much as they like. take a trip to Mexico, and look around. All that crap is blowing/flowing into the US anyway.



But I do agree with your basic comment, and trading "polution credits" between clean and dirty companies defeats the entire purpose, and shows the true reasoning behind "evironmental awareness" : politics.

Abe_Froman 11-30-2000 12:45 PM

Re: Golly gee! A real live psychic!
 
Apparently Gabe, who has stated in the past that he is some sort of Constitutional buff, lied. Any reading of it by anyone with the I.Q. of a rock can see that the reason for OUR government (not to confuse us with the rest of the Godforsaken world) is NOT to provide services to the public. Our governemnt exists to secure our God-given (John and Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, Patrick Henry, James Madison, these words are theirs, not mine) rights. In fact, before FDR hijacked our republic, presidents had repeatedly vetoed spending authorization for such humanitarian reasons as disaster relief and welfare for mentally disabled people, stating that they could not find authorization in the constitution to take money from one person and give it to another. Unfortunately people like Gabe eventually ran for office, and disregarding these restrictions, promised people that if they were elected, they would recieve this or that. And of course, it only continues to get worse and worse. Once the welfare state is rolling, nothing can stop it. Al Gore and the like are clearly in favor of unlimited expansion of the welfare state. Why should I be paying for a beauracracy to regulate off-road vehicle emmissions in a state in which I do not even live, and relieve people who live in that state of their liberties at the same time? Forbid it!

Abe_Froman 11-30-2000 12:45 PM

Re: Golly gee! A real live schmuck!!
 
Apparently Gabe, who has stated in the past that he is some sort of Constitutional buff, lied. Any reading of it by anyone with the I.Q. of a rock can see that the reason for OUR government (not to confuse us with the rest of the Godforsaken world) is NOT to provide services to the public. Our governemnt exists to secure our God-given (John and Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, Patrick Henry, James Madison, these words are theirs, not mine) rights. In fact, before FDR hijacked our republic, presidents had repeatedly vetoed spending authorization for such humanitarian reasons as disaster relief and welfare for mentally disabled people, stating that they could not find authorization in the constitution to take money from one person and give it to another. Unfortunately people like Gabe eventually ran for office, and disregarding these restrictions, promised people that if they were elected, they would recieve this or that. And of course, it only continues to get worse and worse. Once the welfare state is rolling, nothing can stop it. Al Gore and the like are clearly in favor of unlimited expansion of the welfare state. Why should I be paying for a beauracracy to regulate off-road vehicle emmissions in a state in which I do not even live, and relieve people who live in that state of their liberties at the same time? Forbid it!

Abe_Froman 11-30-2000 12:54 PM

Re: EPA Sets New Standards for Motorcycles and ATVs
 
I belive the point of the matter, sir, is that no matter how much pollution is in the air, we do not control the average temperature of the earth. The earth itself spews thousands of times more pollutants into the atmosphere each year than we do. We may be able to dirty up a small area if we try hard enough, but outside of that, humans contribute next to nothing to the warming of the earth's atmosphere. If it is going to happen, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. We could shut down every motor, power plant, and industry on earth and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.


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