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Old 07-19-2002, 07:09 AM   #81
longride
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Default Re: Remember when.......

Wait, Wait, this just in from zrxdoug:

"This is the nicest compliment Ducati could pay to Aprilia. Copy the swingarm, the seat and some of the tail. make the geometry the same. I guess Aprilia was really getting it right, copy cats....."



More "undeniable" truth. Dude, if you like Honda, good for you. Ducati has obviously stolen every idea it ever had from Benelli, MV Agusta, Honda, Aprillia, and... did I leave anyone out? Just a bunch of copycat bastages that couldn't make a proper motorcycle if they didn't steal and copy. Just pure luck and good fortune that they are cleaning up in WSB again this year and have done so in the past with a variety of riders. Here, I have the audacity to believe they are original and consistent and deserve the respect of the true legendary marque they are. They certainly need to be more like the true design leader and original, Honda. Actually you win. You know the absolute truth and your evidence is incontestable.
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Old 07-19-2002, 07:31 AM   #82
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Default Re: Remember when.......

Das,



I just want to second everything you said and add a few more points. First, you missed Honda's most important contribution, the across the frame inline four. I seem to recall a few bikes that use that layout.



The Japanese copy, they copied a lot when they were creating their industry from the rubble that was post WWII Japan. There is a word for designers who refuse to copy other people, the word is unemployed. Great designers take the work of others and add their own innovations to produce bikes like the original Honda 750-4, the Triumph Speed Twin or the Ducati 8-Valve.



Keith Duckworth created the modern cylinder head in 1967 with the Ford-Cosworth DFV GP motor, does anybody really think he came up with the design out of thin air? Honda was building the most powerful (per unit of displacement) motor-vehicle four strokes in the world so you can be sure he looked at them. He saw Honda's mistake (wide valve angle, necessary in an air cooled engine) and figured out how to make the head work with a narrower valve angle (water cooling and ports shaped to cause the charge to tumble) and build one of the greatest engines of all time. EVERY modern cylinderhead is a copy of Duckworth's design. Ducati may run an odd ball valve train but everything else is based on the DFV. Does that make Ducati a copy cat company?



I don't own a Honda, I find them over refined and bland, but insulting what was probably the most innovative and creative motor company in the world for the last half of the 20th century offends me.



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Old 07-19-2002, 04:14 PM   #83
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Default Re: REDVOLUTION Ducati 999

Longride,



I agree with your basic idea (you should know how to work on your bike) your steps are a good starting point but I would add that adjusting the 4V-desmo is a pretty serious undertaking. The two valve engines are not bad and a reasonably mechanical person with a manual, a good set of micrometers and a set of shims can get through setting them. Look at it this way, if a professional mechanic charges 6 hours (factory spec) to 10 hours (to get it right) how long is it going to take a shade tree type like me? I've owned a Monster (two valve) but never a superbike, maybe it is not as bad as it looks but I would hesitate to open a 4-valve engine unless I had someone who know what they were doing looking over my shoulder. The clearances on the closing rockers are, basically, nil and you have to take the slack out of the system to measure this "nil". If you are by very little (thousandths) you get to buy a bunch of very expensive parts.



Contrary to what people will tell you, the air cooled Ducatis are fun and, other then the valves, easy to work on. If I didn't live in the boonies I might still have my Monster, it made the old T-shirt (Ducati, the thinking man's Harley) come to life. It was a lot like a Harley, simple, easy and rewarding to work on and more fun to ride than you can normally have with out the police stopping by.



The superbikes are another matter, they are pretty intense. Since you ride a Harley here is my analogy; part of what makes Harleys popular is that they are, mostly, pretty easy to work on. Anybody with a brain, some tools and some time can fix or even hop up his own bike. OTOH, everything I have read or been told tells me smart HD riders send certain jobs (e.g. crankshaft work) to an expert. I'd say Superbike valve adjustment is closer to Harley crankshaft repair than putting a pipe and a new carb on your Evo or Twin Cam.



Just an opinion,



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Old 07-19-2002, 07:15 PM   #84
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Default Re: Remember when.......

Is it just me, or does it seem KPaul has become the learned, civilized bloke while you've taken over as the (fill in the blank)?



Did you run out of tampons?



No offense, longride - just tossing in a bit of levity. Seriously though - you come off in this thread as quite harsh. Or is it just me?
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Old 07-19-2002, 07:21 PM   #85
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Default Re: This is what happens when....

The name harkens back to France - so it must be safe to say he's got a bit of frog blood in him. Even so, the Voxan is a better looking bike than the 999.
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Old 07-19-2002, 07:32 PM   #86
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Default Re: REDVOLUTION Ducati 999

Just another vantage point, longride: I consider myself of superior technical and mechanical aptitude. I have performed the desmoquattro valve adjustment, but my spare time is worth more to me than the pride of doing it myself over the course of many hours. In other words, I gladly pay to have it done so I can go do something I REALLY enjoy - like ride one of my other bikes. Get it? Just because we don't all think along your lines doesn't make us all morons.
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Old 07-19-2002, 07:49 PM   #87
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Default I haven't cheated yet, but...

Okay, as a charter member of I Ducatisti, I was barely containing myself as the first windows began to open on the Ducati website. Now that I've had a chance to let the magnitude of the event sink in, I'm letting go with my two cents:



Terblanche seems to have gone more towards the old "form follows function" dogma. I am impressed that Ducati appears to have thought out every facet of the bike, from performance to maintenance to ergonomics. I will evaluate carefully before deciding whether or not to purchase one. The styling is striking, but does not foment the passion that the 916 did. The 999 does not have the clean, angular lines I so love - it seems rather choppy and cluttered in contrast. I hate to stray, but I've taken a strong liking to the MV Agusta, and the 999 may not be enough to keep me faithfull. Yep, maybe it's time for some... strange.
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Old 07-20-2002, 04:53 AM   #88
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Default Re: Mr. Terblanche's Styling...

The only thing he did well was the MH900 Hailwood replica. I haven't really like many of his other designs, but the Hailwood bike was so well recieved, he seems to have gotten alot of clout at Ducati. The Hailwood was great as a retro bike, but should the guy who designs "high concept" bits like the MH900 be working on their modern products?



Both the Strada and 999 are boring looking. The monochromatic red doesn't help either. To pull off the all red scheme, the bike needs to have details to pull your eye in - this bike doesn't, even the bird cage frame is almost completely hidden.
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Old 07-20-2002, 12:11 PM   #89
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Default Knowledge and skill

Good point Ducbut. I agree. Although I am going to take the Motorcycle maintenance class at the local VoTech, I think doing a valve job on a 4 valve $17,000 Ducati might be risky. I am fornuate to get paid well to do very specialized engineering work. I would much rather spend my time doing what I am good at then trying to master a skill which I would do seldom. Its like going to a doctor. Would you rather go to an expensive doctor once and get treated right the first time or go to a store front doc and let him learn on you. Its Knowledge and skill thing i.e. it takes both to be good at something.

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Old 07-20-2002, 12:17 PM   #90
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Default Re: I haven't cheated yet, but...

Some how MVButt doesn't have the same ring.



You hit the nail on the head for me on the styling thing "choppy and cluttered" .
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