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Rob-SV650 11-11-2001 07:49 AM

One more thing...
In a sense, they are designed for the racetrack. When the engineers design these bikes, most of their work is aimed at making them perform well on the same tracks the R1's, GSX-R's, etc, are designed on. Performance under these conditions is their primary goal.

In other words, they are still bikes for the crowd that likes to get dressed up in racing leathers on weekends and head out to their favorite twisty road - they are just meant not to kill their backs quite as bad of the way to those roads.

As all-arounders, they are still too compromised. They are sportbikes for riders who'd rather not put up with the extremes of race-replicas, but in no way, shape, or form are they all around bikes in the sense of a Nighthawk or BMW R1100R.

Rob-SV650 11-11-2001 08:12 AM

Re: They are two very different bikes so...
I understand about the sales thing, and obviously there's no manufacturer conspiracy.

I kinda like the Triumphs, but they seem to have reliability issues (like Buells). I hate wrenching and have no desire to work on bikes or be out of a bike while it's in the shop. Triumph used to make a bike I liked (and might have considered), I think it was called the Trident, but they killed it off pretty quickly.

As for their current line, the Speed Triple is gorgeous, but it's even more sportbike-like and extreme than the naked Jap. sportbikes, and the Sprint seems too sportbike-like too. The Trophy line is OK, but aging, and the rest just don't have near the engine performance I want.

What I really want is sportbike-like (but not an inline 4) engine power in a more relaxed chassis, but with decent componentry. While my V65 Sabre is the closest thing I can find, it has it's flaws - I can feel the flex while my SV feels like it was carved from solid steel. I'd like the solid feel of the SV in a more relaxed bike.

If Yamaha bored the V-Max engine to 1300cc and put it in an FJR1300 chassis and dumped the plastic (and sold it in the US, of course), that would be MY BIKE (hint Yamaha).

starvingstudent 11-11-2001 02:20 PM

Yes, I agree, streetbikes fall onto a spectrum, and your rake/wheelbase analysis supports this (seating position tends to fall in line too). The way I see it, you have

*pure sportbikes (CBR/GSXR/etc)

*sport-standards (SV650, Bandit 1200, FZ1)

*pure standards (Nighthawk, F650GS, R1150R)

*cruiser-standards/muscle-standards (Sabre, VMAX) (characterized by longer wheelbase than pure standard, because of large engine, and to prevent flipping over backward from power)

*pure cruisers (VTX, Harley big-twin)

Does this scheme work for you?

Now, if that is so, a Bandit 1200 is no more "built for racer-wannabes" than a Sabre is "built for cruiser-wannabes." Instead, the Bandit and the SV are built for people who want the practicality of a standard blended with the excitement of a sportsbike. The Sabre and VMAX are for people who want the practicality of a standard mixed with the massive torque and long-wheelbase-stability of a cruiser.

The SV may feel "like a sportsbike" to you, perhaps because the bike is physically too small for you (I don't remember if you gave your height and build or not) and then you end up cramped. For someone like me (5'6", 120 lbs), there is a huge difference in feel/comfort between an SV and an R6, or even a CBR600. So long as we're talking about the naked model, which has more legroom and higher handgrips than the SV-S model--right? If you had the SV-S, I could understand the statement that it felt like a sportbike.

Rob-SV650 11-11-2001 03:19 PM

Re: Spectrum
Sounds like we actually agree on most points. Funny that you worded the V65/V-Max catagory that way - I have always considered the V-Max a muscle standard - if you've ever ridden or sat on the V65's, you'll find Mr. Max is more like the Sabre then the Magna. I think the wheelbase is more for its intended mission in life than protection from wheelies, since a Sabre or V-Max will do them anyway, and the Bandit's output is only a HP or two lower than a V65 Sabre although its wheelbase is 6 inches shorter.

Actually, bikes like my Sabre are for people who want a bike that can do anything pretty well and nothing really poorly. You can putt around, tour, and sport ride all about equally well. It's certainly not the absolute best bike for any of those purposes, but it doesn't suck at any of them either.

For example, is a V65 Sabre a better sportbike than a CBR? No. Is it a better tourer? Yes. Is it a better commuter? Yes. Is it a better cruiser? Yes.

It it a better cruiser than a Mean Streak? No, but it's a better sportbike and a better tourer and a better commuter.

Is it a better tourer than a Gold Wing? No, but it's a better sportbike and a better cruiser and a better commuter.

Does this make sense? One bike that looks pretty sweet is the Yamaha FJR1300. It has an almost 60" wheelbase, and the rake is mid-range - I forget what it is exactly, but I think it's 27 or 28 degrees, and it's shaft drive! If only Yamaha would drop an updated, bored out 1300cc version of the V-Max engine in a naked version of the FJR - IT WOULD BE MINE!

Maybe I was a bit strong when I said "racer wannabes", but the Bandit is pretty biased toward a very aggressive style of riding, even more so than the FZ1 and ZRX (typical of Suzuki). Its wheelbase is the shortest and it's tied with the ZRX for the least rake, a very sportbike-ish 25 degrees.

As for comfort differences and size of the bikes, have you spent much time on either an SV or a "real" 600 sportbike, or lived with one as everyday transportation? I never did say, but I'm 5'10", 170 lbs, I work out and am in good shape. Still, on my SV (naked version) in a traffic jam or very low speed riding my hands hurt from the pressure of the grips on them. I can't imagine what a GSX-R would feel like. There probably is a big difference in the comfort, but neither bike is what you'd really want to be on.

starvingstudent 11-11-2001 04:58 PM

I haven't spent much time on a 600cc sportbike or an SV (though that may change soon as I'm hoping to buy an SV650 or ZR7 this spring). BUT I've spent plenty of time on a mountain bike (bicycle), and that puts more weight on your wrists than a CBR600. So I'm a bit more used to some weight on the wrists than the average person. I also think that different people have different tolerances for weight on the wrists, regardless of athleticism and body weight. I actually find that my father's W650 is _too_ upright for my tastes, and I would be _more_ comfortable with my hands a few inches more forward and my feet a couple inches more rearward. Hence I'm looking very seriously at the SV.

Because I find that sort of seating position so comfortable, I can do the same sort of comparison with an SV that you do with a Sabre. Compared to a CBR600, it's not as good of a sportbike, but it's a better commuter, cruiser, and tourer. Compared to my current Shadow 600, it's not as good of a cruiser, but it's a better tourer (I will _never_ do another interstate trip with forward footpegs and wide handlebars), sportbike, and commuter.

And I _can't_ be buying it because I'm a racer-wannabe, because I have never watched a professional motorcycle race in my life.

"Maybe I was a bit strong when I said "racer wannabes","--well, it is MO's forums, so sometimes you have to say things in an extreme manner to get people's attention.

In regards to the B1200 specifically, yes it's a bit more extreme than many of the other big sport-standards. I think it's more of a hooligan bike (a la Speed Triple) as opposed to just really powerful standards like the ZRX (really really comfortable IMO, and if I wanted I musclebike I'd grab a Z-Rex).

Rob-SV650 11-11-2001 06:07 PM

Re: Comfort
I've ridden bicycles too, but the weight doesn't bother as much on them. It's not my wrists at all, it's the heels of my palms that hurt on the Suzuki. Hold yourself up on parallel bars for about a minute or two (like you're gonna do dips) and you'll know what I mean. This may not be a problem if you don't do any commuting in areas with traffic or much slow riding. It's nice at 75 - I just don't spend a whole lot of time there. Comfort is a subjective thing though, so your mileage may vary. I'm not particularly sensitive to weight on my tailbone or back, so straight up or slightly reclined doesn't bother me. I have a Corbin seat on my Sabre and it put me ever-so-slightly more leaned forward than stock - I find that just about perfect.

I'm a little surprised you don't like the Shadow at all for touring - a good friend of mine has a Sportster (modified with ape hangers and highway pegs so it's way less standard-like than a stock Sporty) and with the addition of a windshield and one of those bags that slips over the backrest which he leans back against, he's good to go for hundreds of miles.

The SV is not a really good tourer either, it's too small and the engine's buzz through the handlebars will have your hands tingling after 45 minutes or so (not real bad though, it could be a lot worse). It spins 5K at 70 MPH.

Still, if you like the SV and are near Phoenix, I might have a very well cared for '00 SV on the market soon. Even if not, I'll tell you the seat on the SV pretty much sucks - you'll want the Corbin if you'll be doing any distance riding, and forget about passengers - I did Phoenix to Tucson with my wife and her back was killing her. She's 27 and works out too, so it's not an old flabby folks kind of problem. I'll also tell you it feels **VERY** strange to ride coming off a cruiser - I rode my wife's Rebel 450 to work 26 miles each way for a couple of months before buying the SV and when I did it was the wierdest thing in the world to ride for the first month, they are so night and day different. You won't have any complaints about the engine though (at least until you ride a big stomping V4 anyway :-) - it kicks a$$, it makes torque right off the bottom and is happy to rev and has a nice top end for a V2 as well, and seems bulletproof from what I can tell so far.

Lateshow321 11-12-2001 04:24 AM should change your name.. should change your name "SabreLooser"

Read on..... in my comments on this board I have said that racing is more about "who" than "what" you ride. I agree that a skilled rider on a piece of SH*&! 80's Magna could outride a Squid like you on anything!!!!!

Anyone who checks in and toutes the Sabre is in great need of a new bike. You don't like the SV ? I'd say the problem is you not the bike. You prefer a 700 pound bike that handles like a pig and looks like it was made for David Hasselhoff's "Night Rider"...Fine

If you bothered to read all my coments...I've said the V-Max is an awesome bike to ride fast from stop light to stop light...Im sure the Sabre is not bad for that either...BUT I AM SAYING ...that there is so much more to motorcycling...most of us who consider ourselves "enthusiasts" prefer riding on roads with numerous cornering opportunities. The V-Max and other 800 pound gorrillas are just not much fun for that kind of riding.

On that note, if Suzuki builds the Boost King, I will buy one. I've spent alot of time on a Hayabusa and know that the motor in it is one awesome powerplant. If you've seen the bike you know that they were smart enough to put a chain on it, so that when you come off the gas as you're going into a corner, the bike won't shake like a fat hawaiian's hula!!!!!!

I never said I know it all..only that I know you're an aging squid who prefers to lope around on a relic of a bike.

and my comments in the previous post only said that the V-Max/Magna would finally have a competent replacement in the Suzuki Boost King...and that the V-Max doesn't belong in conversations about "MODERN"! PowerCruiser comparos.

In closing, You've got problems greater than can be adressed in this forum. I suggest that you seek out a trained professional to "work out" some of your mis-placed hostilities. You've got to come to grips with the fact that nobody agrees with you in the hope that Honda will build a new Sabre for this Century. I also suggest you spend some time riding OUT OF TOWN on a road with some turns. A few years from now when you get some experience, you will begin to understand what we are talking about on this board.

SilverBullet 11-13-2001 06:45 AM

Is the Warrior THAT ugly?
OK, first of all I have to admit to have never seen one in the metal, so my idea of the bike may be altered by the pictures. That said I just think the bike is ugly (and I am not talking about the exhaust alone). Even the picture where they replaced the standard exhaust pipe and added a fly screen and a low chin... I think it is plain tasteless.

Does anybody like this look? And for the people that have seen it in person, does it look better than in the pictures?

From my point of view it would be a real shame to spoil a nice performing cruiser with ugly looks, so I am hoping that somebody (even if it's not me) likes the looks enough to buy it (or that performance is good enough for looks to not be that important). Yamaha is a good company and I wish them well, but unless somebody can deal with the looks of the bike, this good effort may explode in their hands.

starvingstudent 11-13-2001 08:31 AM

Your SV
Thanks for the offer, but I'm not too near to Phoenix, and I've got the $$$ for a new one--and there's just something neat about having a completely virgin motorcycle.

I didn't have a windshield, so my neck and shoulders were killed by touring on a Shadow. And I'm personally one of those people whose tailbone gets sore when I sit on it all day.

tachy1 11-13-2001 11:40 AM

Re: V65 Sabre vs SV...PLease!!!!!!
I would imagine owning an SV650, this is the only place you can spout off, because next to a "relic" V65 on the street, you are the equivalent of Minnie Mouse. Even by today's standards of Sport touring performance, a V65 holds it own with the $10k plus 600 pound monsters out there. It's comfortable, fast and reliable if cared for properly. Im on my third one, and can tell you with good rubber and aftermarket suspension components there are few "normal" bikes these days that can match the comfort and performance. Especially for the money!

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