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Old 11-05-2001, 05:37 PM   #191
grover750
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Default Right on, John

Totally agree. It's not the most expensive bike's that get looked at, it's the rarest. I too am a sucker for oogling old bikes, even (okay, especially) when there are new "look at me" bikes parked right next to them. If you ever want to ride my '77 CB750F, come on over. Of course, I'll have to ride your Bandit along behind to make sure you're being nice to it.





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Old 11-05-2001, 07:29 PM   #192
itchface
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Default itz' a good point

Thank you for assuming the awkward and difficult job of correcting MO's grammer. I wince every time I spot simple misteaks like these! Its' a damned shame that MO's testers never paid attencion in school. May be now they'll be more carefull.



About the nad-licking dog; are we disturbed because it's gross, or because our nad cleaning methods are less fun?
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Old 11-05-2001, 10:10 PM   #193
CarsSuck
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Default So will you tell me...

that the Vulcan 1500 isn't supposed to look as much like a harley as they could make it look? I ride Suzukis and Kawasakis with cooling fins (real ones), so pretend all you want. But I'm not some xenophope harley fan, I'm just not a sucker either.
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Old 11-05-2001, 10:22 PM   #194
CarsSuck
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Default Missing the point.

Yes I did say it was original to build a pro street thing WITH A SUPERBIKE TWIN, so everything you typed before you chose to acknowledge the rest of my sentence is irrelevant. Fake cooling fins aren't just decoration, they are FAKE--decoration made to fool stupid people. Why not a fake kickstart? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DUMB--like fake cooling fins. I didn't say HD copied themselves, I just didn't explain why a softail counts as a cruiser. It's because the frame was designed to be inferior to what they already had so it could look like something it's not. Fits the cruiser profile perfectly. So yes, the softail is a cruiser because it has a FAKE hardtail, and it just happens to work like crap. "Decorations" that superficially mimic real functional parts that the "decorated" motorcycle doesn't actually use, are not for intelligent, knowledgable people with any taste whatsoever.
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Old 11-05-2001, 10:47 PM   #195
CarsSuck
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Default Kevin Cameron...

...backed him up, and wrote about how metal cooling fins can transfer heat to the air much more efficiently than liquid in a radiator, which has more less surface area, requires heat to transfer from liquid to metal, then to the air, and must move the same coolant (and heat) around instead of getting a fresh supply. I think the reason that liquid cooled motors are the reality for reliable performance, (as opposed to 1/4 mile performance where air cooled motors rule because they're lighter), probably has to do with being able to route the liquid into places in the head where air doesn't flow in any current air cooled design. 4 valve per cylinder designs need more direct cooling near the valves. As far as oil cooling, aminul, it is still done on most liquid cooled motors. Most have two radiators, one for water/coolant and one for oil. An oil cooled motor doesn't mean you're heating the oil more, it means you're cooling the oil more. The whole engine is lubricated by the oil, which means it will absorb the heat from the motor whether you choose to run it through a radiator to get rid of some of that heat, or not. Adding an oil cooler to any air cooled motor means the oil and engine parts lubricated by it will be cooler. This is almost always good unless the motor is no longer running within the temp parameters it's tuned for. A motor like the early gixxer is designed to depend on oil cooling to run anywhere near it's intended state of tune, therefore the oil cooler is required instead of optional, like on an many air cooled motors that have had oil coolers added.
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Old 11-05-2001, 11:01 PM   #196
luvmyvfr
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Default Dorks...

I don't think I'm a dork, but it's too rare that I get to ride much above 4000 RPM's. I agree, that that is just loping along on my VFR, and fun riding is 6 or 7,000 and above, but you can't cruise around on city streets at those RPM's without looking like a real dork (engine screaming going 40-60 mph in first gear). I just wish America had an autobahn. The closest thing to race-riding I get to do on a near-daily basis is the occasional on-ramp, and then only in 1st and 2nd gear. I'm already in danger of getting a ticket when near redline in 2nd (80 mph).



My take on the Power Cruiser shootout? I'm really thinking about getting a used V-Max. Sounds like fun. None of the other bikes do anything for me. It seems more of a cruiser for sport bikers, my kind of bike.
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Old 11-05-2001, 11:10 PM   #197
CarsSuck
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Default UJM trivia

Honda's CB750 was 69. Kaw held off on the 4 they'd already designed because they didn't want it to be too much like the Honda. So they upped it from 750 to 900 and waited til 73 to put it out. The GS1000 which my 11 is based on came out in 76. The issue isn't copying, because a Vulcan isn't a copy of an HD at all. It's a completely different machine in almost every way--but it'd designed around looking like the harley. They made a liquid cooled multivalve motor with a shaft drive, but made the engine's configuration conform to a look. They didn't just hide the engine's essence, they changed and compromised it, for looks. Engines are there to push. When it's obvious that this goal of the motor has been put secondary to it's look, this offends the taste of anyone who appreciates motorcycles for what they are and their individual flavors. Nutrasweet is not as valid a food product as sugar. Nutrasweet exists to mimic sugar, and it will never be as good, it will always be a substitute for people who can't have sugar. Fortunately there are much more choices of motorcycles than there are sweeteners, so settling for fake anything is cheesey and stupid. It's got nothing to do with copying, it's got to do with being fake and dumb. My GS was designed to work. To compete in areas of function and be a competent tool. A vulcan or a roadstar is not. Harley's own functional advantages, such as simplicity and user maintainability have been completely ignored and avoided by the cruisers that supposedly compete with them, yet offer no more performance. This doesn't make sense, yet people buy it. Pissing on a parade? Yes, I'm pissing on a parade that rallies for more crap and fewer good bikes available to me.
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Old 11-05-2001, 11:24 PM   #198
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Default Another thing

the Harleys being mimicked and sold today were descended styling-wise and mechanically from the knucklehead in 1937, which did have a distinct look anyone can recognize. They didn't even have any competition with an OHV motor. Now with Indian out of it by 53, that leaves every HD with shocks on their own by 5 years. And before that when the pan came out in 48 and the hydraglide in 49, Indian still had a girder front end, a plunger frame, and a sidevalve motor. It'd be pretty hard to confuse them unless you know nothing about motorcycles (the person cruisers are made for). It's the duo-glide frame (which by the way, didn't come with a low seating position at all--that was an invention of customizers) which influenced the styling of later superglide models (which were also influencing those customizers). You notice I haven't mentioned the Suzuki Intruder. It seems to try to copy HD as little as it can while still copying customizers and chopper builders. I don't like it, and I don't think it's a very good motorcycle. And yes I still consider it a cruiser because it's functionally compromised for looks, but I don't consider it a fake HD. Just a fake chopper.
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Old 11-06-2001, 01:34 AM   #199
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Default Re: A really nice cruiser

CarsSuck, I agree with most of what you say. I think fake fins are a cheesy idea too.



BUT there are two Vulcan V-Twins that I appreciate even though they are cruisers in almost every sense of your definition. They are not fake Harleys; they are fake Indians. I refer, of course, to the Drifters 800 and 1500.



Yes, they have the fake-finned Vulcan V-Twin engines. Yes, their "function" is to mimic old American bikes. But they do it very well! Everybody seems to be making Harley clones, even the new "Indian"! The Drifters seem to be the only bikes paying homage to Indian.



They even got the history right! The Drifter 800 has a softail-type rear suspension, mimicking the hardtail of the old Indian 101 Scout (which was a "45", or 750cc bike), while the Drifter 1500 has the big rear shock units mimicking the plunger units of the Chief.



I have neither the cash to buy a real (i.e. pre '53) Indian nor the mechanical aptitude to keep one on the road. I would therefore consider a Drifter if I had the money or the inclination to buy a big cruiser.



OTOH, I think my riding tastes would run more toward the Suzuki Savage, the Kawasaki Vulcan 500, the Suzuki GZ250 and the Honda Rebel 250. However, my pocketbook won't even stand up to one of these...
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Old 11-06-2001, 01:40 AM   #200
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Default Re: So will you tell me...

...what your opinion of a W650 is? It's a compromised design, trying to be a UBM (Universal British Motorcycle), knocking off styling cues left and right. The towershaft cam drive is no more efficient than chain drive, it's more likely to be less so. It was probably used as a link to the memory of old British OHC racing bikes that powered their camshafts like that. It has a '60s style frame and suspension and consequently has '60s style handling.



What would you call this? I for one call it beautiful and would buy one if I could.
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