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Old 11-03-2001, 06:51 PM   #151
Interception
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Default Re: 2001 Power Cruisers Reader Feedback

The RK is a cruiser. The ST4 is an world class sport tourer. I ride a Sportster as a commuter and weekend tourer. Wish I had a ST4 come Saturday, but a hot rodded Sportster sure is a hoot as a commuter / town bike. It has the same personality as my big block, big cammed Chevelle had. Wonderfully antisocial.
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Old 11-03-2001, 07:09 PM   #152
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Default Re: 2001 Power Cruisers Reader Feedback

There is a very harsh definition of retailers in the Harley parlace; dealers or stealers....
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Old 11-04-2001, 05:24 AM   #153
jamesohoh7
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Default Re: and I forgot to mention

They did NOT do something different by building a pro-street thing... the V-max was 'pro-street' long before.. as were the original Magnas. No one called it that, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't fit that image. Yes, you have a point about the V-rod being a v-twin pro-street thing, but that's only b/c Harley only makes V-twins. Mind you, they very nearly did make a v-four back in the 80's though... (the Nova project) so they certainly did believe at one time that a new type of motor was a 'good thing'. I wonder if that project was to be an answer to the V-max back then? Shock, horror!.. Harley -almost- copied someone!?



Again, all I can say is that you're seriously mistaken if you think Harley is the originator of the v-twin, long, low, heavy bike. Harley copied all it's early-days competitors just as much as they would've copied Harley. I can't understand how you can also say that Harley is copying itself... that's strange. As for the fake-fins and so on, sheesh man... you can't tell me that a -little- bit of decoration is all bad?... else, why have fairings w/graphics and chrome or nice paint? Fins on motors (air or liquid cooled) are also NOT A HARLEY-ORIGINAL IDEA! And how can you say that they aren't at least a little bit functional (on a liquid-cooled motor)? Some of those metric cruisers have pretty small radiators... the fins MIGHT just add some cooling effect after all... they aren't plastic.

Perhaps the motors are designed that way... a hybrid sort of cooling.... 80% water, 20% air or some such? I'm sure the fins get hot when the motor is running... thus, they will dissapate heat.

If they likewise add some pleasing decorative element, so be it. I'm sure that the exact fin-spacing on a Harley motor could be more highly optimized as well... but Harley won't change it b/c it's their tradition to have this spacing. They are thus holding on to something for the 'style effect'... their fins are stylish in addition to being functional too.



No one disputes the fact that these metric cruisers look like a Harley. Pay attention to that statement though... just b/c a Harley looks like a Harley doesn't mean that they OWN that style! Like I've been saying... Harley copied its competitors as much as anyone today copies them. Just because Harley's original competitors are not around today to make this OBVIOUS to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. Because they are old and did it a long time ago doesn't give them a free pass. Further, I personally don't CARE that this happened... if you like Harley's copies of other bikes, good for you! I like some of them too.



Your statement that these original competitors didn't make bikes that looked like Harleys is amusing I think. I wish I had pictures of a dozen bikes from 1930 or there-abouts that I could air-brush the logos off of. I'll be willing to bet that to the AVERAGE guy on the street, or even the average motorcycle enthusiast, no one could tell me which bike was made by who. The all had springy-seats... they all had finned motors, they all had spoked wheels... belt drives weren't the exclusive domain of Harley... they all pretty much looked ALIKE! (with the notable exceptions of some highly stylized top-line models).



The only people that could identify the bikes would be the DIE-HARD fans of each make. I'll bet that 80% of the Harley crowd today couldn't do it either

(being generous I think) and I could say ... remove the RUB's from those Harley fans doing the guessing and the number would still be 80%.



The reason these metric bikes look like a Harley is that Harley hasn't bothered to change itself much in the intervening 80 years! You see the same basic bike for that long, damn.. anything could look like that!.. Harley did this to themselves. They painted a nice fat target and surprize, companies finally hit it (after trying their own interpretations on the theme for years I will add). Their new bike isn't an abomination.. it's Harley FINALLY trying to become a moving target. I applaud them.



I respect your position that you're just "calling out" the copycats... no problem. All I'm saying is that really... if everyone is a copycat (as I would assert with my statements above)... why even bother going there?.. what's the point? Are you just trying to p i s s (to avoid the censors) on everyone's parade? The very bike you ride is from the era known for UJM's, right?... how original in concept is your bike?.. do you feel like you're riding a copy-cat of a KZ1000? (I admit that I'm not entirely sure what a GS1100 looks like, but I'd bet it's not far off a KZ1k ..) If the GS1100 came before the KZ1K, I'll bet it didn't come before the 900cc Z1.. circa what... 1971 or so? And -that- bike was a response to HONDA (surprize!) and their CB750-4. I have no idea who Honda copied... probably someone in your definition though... maybe Harley b/c the CB750 had cooling fins??



As for the styling of a Honda looking like a Harley. That really is going to depend on the level of detail you're prepared to get into. The silhouette (sp?) of the bikes are similar, but the stylistic details are quite different. The fender rails are different.. the bars are different.. the forks are different.. oh.. both have spoked wheels... Honda copied Harley!.. or the Wright brothers or whoever invented spoked wheels I guess. Big swoopy gas-tanks... hmmmm.. Harley, or Indian, or ... dolphin?... or maybe that just happens to be a shape that's pleasing to the eye? You wouldn't assert that company X should use a square gas tank (box!?) just to avoid looking like a Harley, would you? My point here is that various stylistic elements do not a copy make.... especially when compared side by side they really don't look all that similar. Hell, it's probably IMPOSSIBLE for someone to exactly copy a Harley fat-bob tank b/c Harley probably tried to patent it... like that laughable attempt to patent 'potato potato'..sheesh.. gimme a break!



The 'Harley bias' I referred to earlier is strictly related to your assertion that Harley is some kind of originator of the a/c v-twin 'heavy-standard'. They are not the originators of that concept.. they merely out-lasted their forefathers. Before you 'go there'; the fact that they outlasted their original competitors isn't entirely b/c they have a 'better bike' either (not saying they are bad bikes!). Bad business management took down more of them than bad design. Harley got bailed out after AMF or they likewise would've become another bad-management casualty.



I guess it comes down to a simple difference of opinion. You apparently believe that Harley invented their market. I disagree. I further state that, in reality, not much is 'original', so why bother pointing out one or another apparent copies if you're not willing to point them ALL out.





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Old 11-04-2001, 05:37 AM   #154
jamesohoh7
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Default Re: YOU are destroying American industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well put. I agree... it gets tiring to hear people that want to prop-up uncompetitive American industries simply b/c they are American. If these companies understood the reasons they are failing, they would maybe have a chance to right themselves. But, sadly, they are blind and they eventually resort to the last-gasp "buy me b/c I'm American" (though they may not be what you want, or worth the $$) tact. Then, if I do not buy it, I'm now un-American. You can't guilt-trip me into buying American... that concept is un-American!



I certainly will buy American products that may cost a little more than foreign competitors... provided they are of similar quality and meet my needs at least as well. This is the capitalist system at work... the best one I know of. I won't spend twice -or more- for these things though b/c hell, I have a finite amount of resources and why should I spend it all on a Harley just to have an 'American bike'?

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Old 11-04-2001, 07:45 AM   #155
Rob-SV650
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Default Re: Speaking of which...

Actually your V65 Magna makes (if it's in perfect running condition and perfect tune) about 100 HP at the rear wheel. The 116 is crankshaft HP.



I ride a V65 Sabre, and I agree with you completely though, I wish Honda would bring back this line - then there might be something I'd buy new...
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Old 11-04-2001, 07:52 AM   #156
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Default Re: 2001 Power Cruisers Reader Feedback

What's wrong with the V-Max's riding position?



A few years ago I was at the Chicago bike show and got to sit on most of the bikes. Everything either felt lile I was on my hands and knees or about to give birth... Then I got to the V-Max, and I said "this is just right!".



Maybe I'm just used to that position, I started on a Nighthawk S and ride a V65 Sabre now, and the V-Max's riding position is similar.



If the Sabre ever dies I'll probably get a V-Max (I'm not in any hurry for that to happen though).
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Old 11-04-2001, 12:29 PM   #157
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Default Good comeback, Static, but...

...there's one error and one ommission



Error: Ford Rangers are built in North America. The Mazda B-Series are Fords with Mazda badges on them. What goes around, comes around, I guess...



Ommission: H-D used to own an Italian bike maker called Aermacchi, who built H-D Sprints. They sold it to some folks who started making bikes called Cagiva.



Until recently, H-D was also making Armstrong military bikes, which are a British design with Austrian (Rotax) engines.



And none of this matters to our colleague who doesn't know the difference between patriotism and xenophobia and who is pobably adjusting the Keihin carb on his Rolls-Roy...er, I mean Harley-Davidson right now.
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Old 11-04-2001, 12:45 PM   #158
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Default Re: might I also add that...

<blockquote> Shootouts, as you know, are the most-read (by far) items in MO. I guess we're a competitive society... they are the most fun to do, too, so it's always going to be a staple of MO. </blockquote>



Great! So when are we going to see the proposed shootout between the M900D, the SV650 and the ZR-7S? Or better yet, the ZR-7S, the Bandit 600 and the Nighthawk 750?
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Old 11-04-2001, 12:58 PM   #159
BigGit
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Default Just my opinion, but...

...the V-Max has always looked cool and will always look cool.



But what so I know? I think Camaros are cool, too...
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Old 11-04-2001, 08:19 PM   #160
john
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Default Re: the Magna

I am confused on what you are inferring here......"HD is using a Superbike derived V-twin" this is true......but it shares no parts....not a single one, with the V-Rod. Only overall design features are similar. "It's not detuned" Well no kidding.....thats because it is not a racemotor.....it is a freestanding motor that shares nothing with the Superbike motor. You give the example of a TL1000 motor......the difference is that the TL1000 motor is an actual race motor......you can actually bolt racebits off of a racebike onto it.......you cannot bolt bits off of the VR motor onto the V-Rod, because once again they share no parts.



I think you should delve a little further into the history of the V-Rod motor instead of relying on a few magazine articles. You will find it is a newly designed motor that has no physical relation to the V-Rod.
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