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gforces 10-26-2001 11:58 AM

Re: Sad News: Single-Vehicle Motorcycle Deaths Rise (Again!)
I've only ridden a few times before, and I intend to enter the sport with as much safety as possible. That means I just took the local motorcycle safety class here in California, where I learned so many things that I never thought about when thinking about riding safely.

I have a few friends that are relatively new riders, and NONE of them have taken any kind of safety course. It amazes me, too, because they bought bikes like 92RRs and GSXR750s. One of them crashed (not serious), but totaled the bike, and the other sent his into a parked car while doing a U-turn the second day out.

I rode my buddy's CBR600F2 around, and never got anywhere above 60 mph. It scared the poo-poo out of me! It has then caused me to re-evaluate my choice for a first bike--first it was a F4i, and now I changed that to a Ducati M620s i.e. (A big diff in power and speed).

I used to go to the local Honda dealer here in Milpitas, CA to look at the cruisers, and every time I go there, the type of person I always see in the sportbike section (forgive me for stereotyping) are the 18 to 24 group with the spiked hair, a girlfriend with a cute smile and a high-pitched giggle when sitting on the back of a 929RR.

--And the fellow's NEVER ridden before. These, my friends, are the people that are buying (and dying) bikes that they shouldn't be riding (yet).

stevegrab 10-27-2001 12:32 PM

Re: Uh yeah, but...
Although some people may be "weekend warriors", as this thread has talked about, that doesn't mean they don't ride frequently, and log many miles. I have only ridden for 4 years, but have ridden nearly 10,000 miles each year (6-8 month season).

I didn't start riding to commute to work on a bike, when I ride I like to go all day, and do 300 miles or so, not just the 40 mile round trip commute. Plus for many that work in office (dress codes) the extra hassle of having to change and carry extra clothes doesn't really make riding to work practicle.

My point? Basically that people who ride almost everyday shouldn't look at the "weekend" rider as some inexperienced moron. For some people riding is a hobby, they don't want to or can't ride every day. Doesn't make them less of a motorcyclist.

stevegrab 10-27-2001 12:45 PM

Re: The Problem is 3-fold
Damn, your post is intelligent, and doesn't ridicule or berate any riding group? What is it doing on this forum :)

Good point about riding tests, they are pretty weak (although here in OH they were more difficult than you described).

CarsSuck 10-28-2001 11:40 AM

In most cases...
I believe it DOES make them less of a motorcyclist. Nothing wrong with that, they should do what they really want to do. But if they log less miles and don't maintain their skills as often, or ride in easier environments, in most cases it probably does make them less of a motorcyclist--as in, not as good of one. Just like the fact that I'm not a grand national champion and have no trials riding skills certainly means I'm less of a motorcyclist than someone who can flat track, ride over boulders, and has street skills to match mine. There's always someone better.

stevegrab 10-30-2001 07:13 AM

Re: In most cases...
You're right, there is always somebody better. But people asked , "where are these people during the weekdays". As starvingstudent pointed out, there are more people riding on the weekend, than on weekdays, so there are bound to be more accidents. Your original comments have a tone of "Well I ride every day, that's why I don't crash. Why doesn't everybody do that." You missed my point, some people can't or don't want to do that. Saying they are less of a motorcyclist, makes it sound like they don't take riding seriously. (You didn't say not as good, you said less, and there is a difference. Less has more to do quantity or importance, not quality.)

A rider can commute every day of the week, on the freeway and city streets, but that doesn't mean they can turn a bike in the twisty roads. And your point about professional riders (I'm not a grand national champion) is valid. But there's a lot of top level pro riders (road racing especially), that won't even ride on the street. They think its unsafe. Does that mean any street rider is better than them?

What do you mean by riding in easier environments? I don't care for riding in heavy freeway traffic, or congested city streets. To me that is just no fun, you're open to too many idiots on the road (bad enough in a car). Sure that may make me less able to avoid problems in those environments, but this story was on "single vehicle accidents", not many of which happen on busy congested roads I would bet.

Sorry, don't mean to belabor the point, I just took exception to the prevailing attitude that some people hold, that if you don't ride every day, you're not a real motorcyclist (or as you put it, less of a motorcyclist).

CarsSuck 10-30-2001 08:48 PM

People who don't ride for transportation
ARE LESS SERIOUS about motorcycling. By definition. If you think it's a hobby, you are less serious than someone who condsiders it an everyday part of life. Get over it. The whole industry caters to you in this country. It's always ALL about the recreational rider. The magazines, the dealers, the parts suppliers, motorcycle online--they are all here just for you. Often it seems none of them give a damn about people out here just trying to get where we need to go using the transportation we believe is superior. Yes backroads are an easier environment--so what. Why do you feel the need to immediately offer excuses? No one's going to force you to do anything--in fact, the only thing anyone will do is continue to taylor the entire industry in this country specifically to you--hey, it's your cross to bear. Of course congested traffic is less fun most of the time, and usually more difficult than roads that are chosen for fun. Should I be saying something untrue because you like to pretend that your environment is difficult? Or you just want others to think it is? I think it's great if people ride motorcycles at all. I'm not condemning anyone, but I am exempting myself from "you" (since you've chosen to represent recreational riders here). I don't figure into "your" statistics, "you" don't figure into mine. So "we" don't have a motorcycle safety problem. That's the reality, and I'm simply taking exception to being lumped into a group I don't belong in.

stevegrab 10-31-2001 09:16 AM

Are still real riders, and can be serious about riding
Ok, not that any of my comments will change your opinion of just how impervious you are to single vehicle crashes. Datadan's numbers said that 41% of weekday fatalities were in single vehicle crashes, so a lot of people riding M-F are still dying in single vehicle crashes. A smaller percentage than on Sat-Sun (52%), but still a pretty high percentage.

If the statistics were broken down into who rides regularly (you) and who doesn't (me), then we might have some fact. But we don't. And then what defines "riding regularly"? As I said I ride 10K miles a year, in 6-8 months of mostly weekend rides and trips. How many miles does the daily commuter ride if that is all they're doing. How many miles do you ride? (How does that compare to my # of miles per day?)

And your (and others) assumption that just because more single vehicle accident deaths occured on the weekend (per day or as a percentage of total deaths) than weekdays, that it is the weekend warrior inflating the statistics is unfounded. It might be, but may also be people drink more on weekends (another large contirbuting factor), or any other number of things.

I don't like being lumped into statistical categories either. But you're using your opinion to suggest something about the numbers that don't exist in the study.

You said in one post

"And on saturday or sunday, is it the ones that didn't ride the rest of the week that are crashing, or the ones that have been riding all week? Guess which one I'd bet on. I know it wasn't me."

Guess what, it wasn't me that crashed and died either. DUH, because I'm still alive. The whole report was "single-vehicle motorcycle deaths", not accidents. Believe what you want, buy everyone who rides, no matter how regularly is lumped into this study.

I promise you and the rest on this forum, I won't follow-up, because I just don't care what you have to say anymore.

CarsSuck 10-31-2001 09:07 PM

Well then I won't bother responding.
Whoops, too late. Oh well, I'm sure you'll read it. Not that it matters since I really doubt anyone else is checking back here. I don't have a problem with being part of some statistic, I have a problem with NOT being represented in the statistics. In other words, I'm not like you. There's nothing wrong with you, we just aren't the same. Yet there's never anything in statistics that even acknowledge a group that I'd fit in. I rode 14k last year, but that really doesn't matter. It should've been a lot more, but the difference was made in vacation trips that I didn't get to take, and those are purely recreational. They're my favorite, and fun, but honestly they don't have much to do with skills, other than packing, navigating, and enduring (800 mile days). My skills are honed in traffic. Backroad skills are important too, but they're really more for fun. I mean a backroad won't try to smack into you, you can only bite yourself out there. Take all this as an attack if you want, but it's not. The whole industry, including manufacturers, press, dealers etc, ignore riders like me. Then the minute one speaks up about it, there's this crap like you're being discriminated against. Poor you.

The_Aerodynamic_Head 11-12-2001 06:16 PM

The Great Reward as a Go/No Go switch
I see your point.

It becomes almost binary.

There is no in bewtween.

Friedrich Nietche said it way back when:

"That which does not kill me makes me stronger."

Maybe increasingly true in its literal sense.

Be aware, though, that such a phoenomenon (It's so safe, you either walk away or you fly away home) could easily be interpolated to the rest of modern transportation infrastructure.

tesmanus 12-09-2001 04:22 PM

Re: Sad News: Single-Vehicle Motorcycle Deaths Rise (Again!)
Actually I was happy with that report. I never drink and drive, seldom ride after dark, almost always wear a full-face helmet and usually ride in a city.

I'm in a very low-risk group - wish the insurance companies would chop my rates.

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