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-   -   Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint (http://www.motorcycle.com/forum/mo-reader-feedback/4227-tiered-licensing-counterpoint.html)

seruzawa 01-17-2007 07:41 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint
 
Yes but now you get to punish people even more for having incorrect thoughts. That's a real wet dream for the nanny staters.

KLRer 01-17-2007 07:43 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint
 
Fred's insurance argument might be the sharpest arrow in his well honed arsenal. The cost there, I would surmise, is due to non-fatal but medically costly accidents or lifetime paralysis in some cases.



Excellent point. One possible counterpoint is a little grim but I'll throw it out anyway. Might riders not be just as likely to sustain costly injuries on a smaller bike as a faster, larger one? Seems one might be as likely to break ones neck at 60 mph as at 90 or 130mph. At higher speeds the accident is more likely to be fatal. But the sad fact is that fatalities are not that costly to the insurance industry, at least not if we're talking health insurance. Life insurance policies are already adjusted, I think, for motorcycling risks.

jasonlion54 01-17-2007 07:44 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint
 
Hear, hear!

acecycleins 01-17-2007 07:45 AM

Re: So, in other words...
 
So, you've never been self-employed, huh?

I OWN my own insurance agancy- I insure inexperienced riders and will at any moment bust on a customer that buys something that they have no business owning. I WILL make this bet with EVERY customer that I believe is inexperienced enough to warrant the following: "I bet a steak dinner w/ drinks that you break that bike within 3 months of the time of purchase."

In 8 years I have NEVER had to pay on this bet and I've done it hundreds of times.

I will only offer liability coverage and if the customer displays any sense of intelligence then I may even offer theft and fire coverage.

Putting all that aside, the retail business is just that- retail. You don't turn down a sale for "personal" reasons. If a 20yr old college co-ed comes into a Hummer dealer and is qualified to buy the Hummer but she has NO experience driving SUVs, is the dealer going to turn her away? H&LL NO!

You guys b!tch and moan about gov't interference on tiering and not being able to buy what you want. In the same breath, you will b!tch and moan about salesmen and women selling what you want. Make up your mind!

Free market trade allows us to make decisions and mistakes.

Training works, but only if mandatory in this situation. Otherwise, bring on the tiered system and let the gov't sort it out.



So- there: blah,blah and two pair of pants.



Just so you know- I can take on this subject with anyone that opposes the tier idea and at worst there will only be a stalemate for me. I ride, I sell, I insure- I see every point but from a professional (not personal) standpoint I will always side with tiering or mandatory training. 'Nuff said.

KLRer 01-17-2007 07:45 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counter Counterpoint
 
Fred's insurance argument might be the sharpest arrow in his well honed arsenal. The cost there, I would surmise, is due to non-fatal but medically costly accidents or lifetime paralysis in some cases.



Excellent point. One possible counterpoint is a little grim but I'll throw it out anyway. Might riders not be just as likely to sustain costly injuries on a smaller bike as a faster, larger one? Seems one might be as likely to break ones neck at 60 mph as at 90 or 130mph. At higher speeds the accident is more likely to be fatal. But the sad fact is that fatalities are not that costly to the insurance industry, at least not if we're talking health insurance. Life insurance policies are already adjusted, I think, for motorcycling risks.

DonM 01-17-2007 07:48 AM

AARP response (just kidding)
 
I could understand your concern if there were accidents during the MSF safety course by the old guys coming back on large motorcycles. But, a training class is where you are suppossed to challenge your limits and I'm sure you've seen some unsteadiness.



On another note, a small tier limit displacement would compromise the safety of new riders in being able to "get out of the way". Here in the NorthEast I would allow beginners up to 600cc. Yes, I know that includes the supersports. But if you create a 500cc limit the manufacturers will come up with fast superspots in that size. With a new rider, bike gross weight is a bigger problem than engine output.


acecycleins 01-17-2007 07:51 AM

Re: Excellent Counterpoint.
 
Hey KP- You argue a valid point above but as the F&I mgr of a Ducati shop I have to say that required licensing to purchase bikes would only hurt the industry. Requiring M class upon registration is the answer here. Read some of my responses above and tell me if I crazy or out of line on anythng I said :-)

rep5150 01-17-2007 07:51 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint
 
Questions and comments...



Question... How exactly would they determine the tiers? By CC? I ride a 900cc 600lbs (or there about) cruiser and have been riding for less than a year... I'm certain there are 500cc sport bikes out there that are much more powerfull... Hardly seems right that I would have to wait to ride my Vulcan while someone can hop right on their "more dangerous" crotch rocket.



Comments... My first bike is the aforementioned Vulcan 900... I know its not exactly "huge" but it is bigger than many folks suggested I start with. I am 37 years old, I am big (over 6 feet and about 295lbs), strong (relatively), fairly athletic and have never had a problem controlling my bike. I took the MSF course, rode around the neighborhood, hit the streets only when traffic was mild, and took my time getting comfortable with riding. I listen to people who know more than I do, I am not ****y, I am carefull and I am deliberate.



That being said, I am against tiered Licensing. It reminds me of seatbelt laws for the autos... I don't need the gov't to save my life... I am plenty smart enough to wear my seatbelt and I figured it out on my own, thank you very much!



What ever happend to natural selection?




cda 01-17-2007 07:53 AM

Re: Excellent Counterpoint.
 
Bad news, ksquid:

If the AMA did, "...lobby for this low hanging fruit " then I would cancel my membership as many others would. With what would be left of their membership I doubt we have to worry about them getting anything passed they would lobby for.



As unsafe drivers are killing 90% of the people killed in traffic we MUST blame the drivers if we care about impacting traffic fatalities. You can ignore it if it is not politically possible and the deaths will continue no matter the quantity of onerous restrictions you and other get pushed on motorcyclists.

I cede no ground when the opposition fails on logic and statistics much less freedom of choice and personal responsibility. But that is just me and there ain't many of us that support personal responsibility left.



So here is the game plan for ya:

Get your silly laws passed in California

A majority of the country will likely follow

When statistics don't prove significant reduction in overall road fatalities they will be twisted

(just like after the CA mandatory helmet law was shown to save lives by avoiding fatalities per mile ridden statistics)

Once the statistics are twisted then you can get your Federal laws passed.



Simple. Works almost 100% of the time.



I wish you absolute failure in your quest to suck all the joy out of riding.

Gritboy 01-17-2007 08:01 AM

Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint
 
All good notions if everyone was being even modestly responsible. I say we pick that big buger out of that bloated nose of government leave people to their own fate! ;-)



I'd love to do away with 95% of all laws that should fall under one simple "personal responsibility" law that says you assume responsibility of your own actions and that unless facts prove someone or something else was intentionally at fault (i.e., not an accident), you suffer your own actions with no legal recourse. I can dream, but that ain't gonna happen. :(



Alas, until our legal and insurances systems are fixed, personal responsibility seems a bygone notion to many people. Thus we\'re left to an over-litigated country, with the government having its nose in most aspects of our life. Seeing as I want to be able to ride, I see no choice but to forcibly improve the image of motorcyclist amid the sea of moronic drivers on 4 wheels, since "they" appear to control the big nose of government.


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