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Old 01-18-2007, 05:39 PM   #211
Holy_Kaw
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Good stuff as always Fred. Your and Gabes positions, and the respect I have for you two caused me pause...



We still disagree on this point!
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:13 PM   #212
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

This is a lot of sturm und drang about the solution to a non-problem. Repeat after me - Motorcyclist who crash hurt THEMSELVES. They are NOT your problem - so butt out!



A newbie crashing his Gold Wing won't even raise your rates - because the insurance company already has tiered insurance. They know the difference between a newbie on a God Wing and a graybeard on a GSXR.



Will the newbie crashing excite some paternalistic legislation to collect more fines. Sure it will - so go fight that instead of surrendering your rights in advance.
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Old 01-18-2007, 08:14 PM   #213
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Lithium on backorder, eh pal? There will be better days and lots more people to ***** off before you die (everyone needs a goal, ya know?)
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:17 AM   #214
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

But if the MSF is the only street training game in town, and that is what it consists of, then there is effectively no training regime to speak of in place in the USA at all, and people would actually be better and safer taking the stupidly inadequate 'riding test' at the DMV which has been described to me and which I'm told actually CAN be failed...



The only direct experience I've had of a US trained rider was of a woman I knew who came to the UK, bought a 600cc Shadow and rode it on her US licence. She was an accident waiting to happen! After 6 months on the US licence she needed to get a UK motorcycle licence or stop riding, and it took her a week of intensive training to reach a standard where she barely scraped a UK test pass on a 125cc motorcycle, despite having been riding (presumably very badly) for years. And she was still dangerous by UK standards even after she passed the test...



She never did manage to pass a UK car driving test while I knew her...
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:33 AM   #215
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

How about learning to ride on a 125cc and being able to pass a challenging riding test, including both offroad (handling) and onroad (defensive riding, traffic laws) components, before being licenced to ride anything larger? How about then being restricted to a sub-50bhp (GS500, EX500 or 535 Virago type bikes) machine for a couple of years or until you can pass the same test previously described on a larger bike.



I'm sure that if somebody can confidently pilot a heavyweight cruiser or a GSXR1000 round those cones that were hard work for a novice on a 125cc Yamaha, and can ride them on the street safely with confidence and panache, you will have earned the right to step up onto the bigger bike before your year is up.



There's not a lot of freedom or power to be found smeared across an intersection or wrapped around a tree.

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Old 01-19-2007, 10:49 AM   #216
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Default Re: Drivers the issue

What's the US population... 250 Million isn't it?



In the UK we have 66 Million odd people, and only manage to kill 3,600 or so of them every year on the roads. And we have higher speed limits, many much narrower and more twisty roads, many fewer double centre lines, and much less pervasive policing than you have.



What we also have, though, seems to be a far more rigorous approach to driver and rider skills than they have in the US. Driving in the US seems to be siome kind of rote learned activity where the objective and success criteria is blind compliance with traffic laws rather than any concept of the skilled driver as somebody who interacts with and responds to the situation developing around them and avoids hazardous situations before they develop, whoever has the right of way. Assigning blame for accidents should be a game for the insurance industry, avoiding them should be the focus of drivers. Instead, it appears to be 'avoiding citations that might affect the way my insurer sees things'. At least, that seems to be my interpretation of most of what I have seen from the US as an outsider.



While driving is seen as a low-skill, low-involvement, rote activity not requiring thought or involvement, the US will presumably continue to experience carnage on its roads.
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Old 01-29-2007, 02:06 PM   #217
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

I'm all for encouraging, or requiring, moto safety courses. I've taken them myself and found them useful, and I've been riding for more than 50 years. As to what bike a beginner should start out on, I say, it depends on the individual. Look, in spite of all the macho crap, a Harley (excluding the FLs) is probably the easiest bike to ride you can find. It's low to the ground, got so much torque you don't have to be too selective as to gears, is not in the slightest twitchie in the steering, and doesn't encourage extreme riding habits.
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:07 AM   #218
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

" industry continues to insist on trying to give licenses to anyone who wants one"



...I'm sorry, we get our licenses from where? The motorcycle industry?



Look, tiered licensing is the only way to do anything about the shameful unleashing of totally inexperienced riders on brand new ZX-14s. I don't want them hurt any more than I want them to use the same roads I do.

The 'industry' does not and never will voluntarily regulate the sales of bikes depending on rider experience and skill. This is exactly the function of government in a capitalist society, an industry will never voluntarily limit it's sales. Government regulation is the only way to ensure completely unskilled and inexperienced riders are not trying to ride bikes so far beyond their capabilities that they endanger themselves and others.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:02 AM   #219
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

The free enterprise system lives -- and has an answer to tiered licensing systems (or any other "mother-Washington know best" interference.)



As a Liberatarian, I hate to see "the government" messing about in anyone's private affairs, but I have to admit that very little paved roadway is in private hands, and that the costs of an accident are borne, at least in part, by all taxpayers; which is why our "corporate representatives" have the right to impose reasonable restrictions on our activities while on public roads.



Therefor we have laws demanding that vehicle owners-operators be insured. And the insurers are free to set the conditions under which they will do business with you.



Thus insurers hold the key; the insurance companies that serve the novice rider (or their responsible adults) can and should refuse to cheaply insure those whom they know (proven statistically) are responsible for the highest accident rates.



This is well within these companies' rights: For example, no insurance company will cover an unlicensed operator. If these companies place restrictions of the untrained, unskilled, immature insured; including, limited vehicle horsepower, carriage of passengers, time-of-day restrictions, etc., these riders would be "encouraged strongly" to buy machines within their capabilities, to ride more sensibly, and to acquire training.



Now -- if you want to buy your 16 year old kid a Hayabusa, and are willing to pay $25,000 a year for insurance, that's your business. If the results are the worst, the rest of us won't be paying for the damage.
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Old 02-03-2007, 05:40 PM   #220
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Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

I have no sympathy for any 16 year old who has the cash to sink 15 grand in a Liter bike. I also have no sympathy for the rich 16 year old (or 20, or 40) year old who buys said bike and then becomes road-burger because he did something really stupid.



I think there's enough hindering Natural selection today as is. The majority of us are here because we didn't do something stupid with our first bike (Vulcan 500) and we were able to live to talk about it.



In nova scotia we do not have Engine size requirements,however we are required to ride "in training" for 6 months after getting our endorcement. No passengers, no driving after dusk, no tickets or your 6 months are reset. In nova scotia, 6 months also happens to be our riding season (for most!), so it works out.



While I agree a 500CC restriction would make sense, I do not think passing on the cost of extra training at each step of licensing is the right solution either. You aren't required to re-train to drive a truck if you took your license on a car; such a thing is just silly even though both vehicles are different in handling. Again, natural selection. If, after a year of driving your 250cc Rebel perfectly,you decide to buy a liter bike and wrap yourself around a telephone pole on your way out of the dealership, you probably shouldn't have been driving anyway.



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