Go Back   Motorcycle Forum > Motorcycle.Com General Discussion > Motorcycle News > Old News > MO Reader Feedback

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-18-2007, 11:20 AM   #201
12er
Founding Member
 
12er's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SF
Posts: 2,801
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

You can buy anything, just they wont fill your tanks without a cert card.
12er is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links Remove Advertisements
Motorcycle Forum
Advertisement
Old 01-18-2007, 11:26 AM   #202
BMW4VWW
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Perhaps the thought of directing our energies to making some fundamental changes in the mess we currently call our government has somehow eluded you?
BMW4VWW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 11:50 AM   #203
acecycleins
Founding Member
 
acecycleins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 4,129
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

It has not. The foundation of the changes can be made state by state which is much easier than the Fed route. I'm not seeking drastic changes. Just fundimental updates to exsisting code. They just passed a bill in GA that says if you're 16 and want a license you MUST attend Driver's Ed. They haven't had Driver's Ed training in high schools in GA for almost a decade. It's slowly making a return, but what has happened is free enterprise. Private training companies are now allowed to fill the gap that state funded training can't. The same CAN happen in the motorcycle licensing system. Tier it (if it works) or Train them (if it's available) but something has to be done or our passion of riding will disappear with in the next few decades because of gov't imposed limitations.
__________________
"Slack" - a state of being in which everything flows smoothly.....a frame of mind so at ease that the universe naturally cooperates.
acecycleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 12:00 PM   #204
DaveFla
Founding Member
 
DaveFla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 328
Default Self - Tiering still the best approach?

Been there, done that: I started with uncounted hours on a 1975 RM100, followed by 2600+ street miles on a Yamaha QT50, followed by a 20-year break, the MSF BRC, 2800+ miles on a Buell Blast (including another class), and now 9k plus in the last three years on a GL1000 and XB12R.



(I'm not at all proud of that last number/annual mileage, but 2006 really sucked. I was often too distracted or fatigued to ride safely.)



I can't say that I always liked it - imagine learning to countersteer on a QT50 Yamahopper, with its fixed footpegs quickly shearing off! But my experience pretty much followed exactly the advice I'd been given by Allan Girdler, Cook Nielsen, Gordon Jennings, Phil Schilling, and a host of others. Next up: adding some advice from Fred to that and making my first 4+ hour day, once the weather breaks here.



Meanwhile, the kid next door went out and bought a beautiful GSXR 600 for his first bike. He's done fine for two years on the anually renewable learner's permit, and I've given him my old booklet for the MSF BRC. But his mileage went waaaay down after one of his buds lowsided an R6 at 35 mph on wet leaves... in the dark, on an unfamiliar road. Even the "pass everyone" BRC would've helped with that, eh?



And of course, everyone from his parents and girlfriend to the concussed riding buddy were delighted when he announced plans to sell his Gixxer...

DaveFla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 01:13 PM   #205
BMW4VWW
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,833
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Seems as though lately that those who rule us give no more thought to revoking our rights than they do our "privileges".
BMW4VWW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 03:24 PM   #206
tedbannon
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Fred, thanks for the well-thought out piece.



While I'm no fan of tiered licensing, I certainly appreciate the value in kicking the idea around here with other MOfos and commend you for taking the time to commit your thoughts to (virtual) paper on the subject.



-Ted
tedbannon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 04:21 PM   #207
gmeline
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Tiered Licensing: Abosolutely NOT!!! I started out in Japan where they harbor tiered licensing. It is cumbersome, restrictive, bureaucratic, and oppressive. Encourage but do not FORCE riders to start out with smaller bikes. Big bikes are not the problem (unlike automobiles with their SUV counterparts) and tiered licensing will have little to no net effect overall (although all of its vices will on all riders having to go through it).
gmeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 04:30 PM   #208
tedbannon
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Well, I'm not a big fan of one size fits all government legislated solutions to problems, so perhaps it's reflexive that I don't favor tiered licensing.



Motorcycles will always be more dangerous than cars by virtue of their 2-wheeled design. So, right away proponents of tiered licensing should be asked what their ultimate intention is, because if it's to get car-like fatality and injury rates that's just not going to happen short of banning sales altogether. If the goal is to get levels back to where they were in the early 90s (or whenever they were lowest), I think there's plenty of awareness that a generation of middle-aged riders getting back onto motorcycles after not having ridden in many years is viewed as a very likely cause of increasing fatalities and injury. It's also been suggested that big displacement bikes are also a likely cause of these same riders getting into trouble, but I'm not sure I buy into that completely. Having ridden a variety of different cruiser styled bikes with varying displacements, I can't say that I think 1400cc+ cruisers seem any more or less controllable or safe than similarly styled 650 or 1100cc bikes -- unless low speed paddle walking and stoplight tipovers are contributing to accident statistics. Yeah, bigger displacement cruisers are a bit heavier, and they do accelerate faster and have more top end speed, but even 1800cc+ factory cruisers don't break into the 11s in the quarter mile and top out at under 120mph. Smaller cruisers can run the 1/4 in the 13 or 14 second range and top out near 100, so the differential doesn't seem that vast to me. Any garden variety car can manage those numbers so it's not like these are speeds or acceleration that people have never experienced before (in a car). And modern cruisers also have better brakes and handling than the smaller displacement bikes of yore that these same middle-aged riders were tooling around on 10-20 years earlier. So, maybe it's not the bikes, but the riders who are overestimating their reflexes and innate ability to hop back into the saddle and ride -- irrespective of displacement? Personally, I think Harley touring bikes -- to pick an iconic big cruiser of the sort that's being implicated in increased fatalities -- handle and brake just fine compared to any other bike until you start dragging parts.



This brings us to lifestyle. If we were talking about middleaged guys hopping onto literbikes and splattering themselves all over signposts, mailboxes, and car windshields across the country I would be more inclined to agree that displacement is a significant factor in increasing fatalities. But jeeze, when alcohol figures into 60% of motorcycle accidents, and 1/3rd of those involved in accidents aren't even properly licensed it's hard to see how tiered licensing is going to solve anything. And I think the statistics regarding alcohol use and licensing speaks volumes about how Americans view riding as a form of recreation, and not as essential transportation.



And I've seen those small displacement bikes in places like Taiwan and China, and I don't think I'm interested in trading our assortment of relatively large displacement bikes for their collection of smaller ones. And as a consumer, I can't think of a single instance where someone has said to me that he or she can't find a nice small displacement bike to suit his or her needs -- those bikes already exist here although there may be fewer to choose from than in other places. Sales of smaller bikes are overshadowed by larger displacement bikes as a matter of consumer choice. And the thought of a new rider on a 250cc machine being chased up a highway on ramp by 18-year old Johnny Mustang GT doesn't give me a warm & fuzzy either. As long as car displacement and power is on an upward trend, I want a bike that has enough grunt to let me accelerate away from potential accidents and idiots when turning or braking are not viable options. I wouldn't buy a small displacement or relatively underpowered car for the same reason -- you're risking your life merging onto the highway at anything less than 20 over the limit in some places.



And perhaps it is wrong to conclude that motorcycle dealerships will go out of business -- I agree that the entire market could very well shift downard. But if total aggregate sales of large displacement bikes drop, prices for those models will go up unless manufacturers pass those costs along to consumers of smaller models, and I'm not sure why they would do that if it undercut their ability to be competitive in a market segment with a larger pool of potential riders (lower tier-licensed riders). So, all other things being equal, experienced riders can expect to pay more for large displacement motorcycles as a result of tiered licensing and the resulting reduction in sales volume of larger displacement machines. At a minimum, I think that a shift in displacement will lead to a change in rider demographics away from those who like motorcycling because it's viewed as rebellious or dangerous and towards those who recognize that 60mpg is going to save them a lot of money in a year of daily commutes.

tedbannon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 04:41 PM   #209
Dixit
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 54
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

In fact, 3 kids 18, 17,and 16 years old got killed in Palm Bay Florida last week because the one riding the 600 cc supersport bike slammed in the 2 others. Motorcycles kill other people all the time. You have no clue of what you are talking about.
Dixit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2007, 06:18 PM   #210
BrowningBAR
Snuggles

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In a really, really, really old farmhouse
Posts: 4,369
Default Re: Tiered Licensing - A Counterpoint

Bottom line is; I hate people. I work from home because I can't stand all the idiots I come across. So if people are dieing because they are as stupid as I always thought they were, than HOT D@MN! Let's get a collection going so everyone can afford a GX-R1000 and an 800lbs cruiser. Because, from my perspective, dumb people are NOT dieing at a high enough rate.



People, the new season of American Idol just got the highest ratings FOX has ever had. No amount of tiered licensing and helmet laws are going to correct such a large and deep seated cesspool of idiocy.



When people need a warning on coffee telling them it's hot, what in the HELL is a helmet and a class gonna do for them?!



Make 'em ride naked I say! If they survive the first year of embarrassment, ridicule, and road rash across all of their flabby, cottage cheesed covered body parts, than congratulations, you just passed my first tier of licensing! Here's a thong, bowtie and a beanie helmet; you now on tier two, bubba!



BrowningBAR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off